4 Link IC Height

Suspension Tuning, Troubleshooting, Design and Discussion

Moderators: David Lemmond, Dave Morgan

Message
Author
User avatar
BillyShope
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:03 am
Location: Orlando, FL
Contact:

Re: 4 Link IC Height

#16 Post by BillyShope » Thu May 21, 2009 8:05 pm

Dave Morgan wrote: Before power-adders and programmable ignitions, a light-leaving car (footbrake with low torque) could expect to work with 75% and a violent car (transbrake or manual transmission with high torque) could expect to work at around 25%. Friends in the business who still use these values tell me they still apply. I can also add that in the modern era, if you run 100%, you’ll rattle the dickens out of your tires immediately.
Dave
I want to be certain I understand you correctly, Dave. Are you saying that separation (hit) is no longer considered desirable by today's racers? I ask this because separation is impossible with an antisquat value less than 100%.
http://home.earthlink.net/~whshope
over 150,000 page views

DOTracer
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 11:12 pm
Location: Westminster, MD

Re: 4 Link IC Height

#17 Post by DOTracer » Thu May 21, 2009 9:38 pm

I'll admit I didnt' read alot of this post (quick overview), but looking at the 4 link plot screen, I'd swear the front 4 link brackets were installed too low in the chassis. Either that, or someone lowered the ride height a considerable amount from where the chassis was fabricated/setup initially.

You don't have much in desirable 4 link settings.

bigblockbill
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:02 pm

Re: 4 Link IC Height

#18 Post by bigblockbill » Thu May 21, 2009 10:57 pm

DOTracer wrote:I'll admit I didnt' read alot of this post (quick overview), but looking at the 4 link plot screen, I'd swear the front 4 link brackets were installed too low in the chassis. Either that, or someone lowered the ride height a considerable amount from where the chassis was fabricated/setup initially.

You don't have much in desirable 4 link settings.
Agreed and that is what started a lot of this confusion for me. I have not yet had time to play with the car again, that is how it came when I bought it. I am really really hoping that I can get many more favorable IC locations with a ride height change.

Great post indeed Dave, Thanks for clearing several things up for me. I will print that out as I am sure I will be referring to it several times.

Now there is another thing my silly brain is pondering hopefully someone can help clarify. I am leaning towards setting the IC to start with around the 30-40% mark and had kind of already (and will) add 4 inches in length to it, but what to do with the shocks? My gut feeling tells me I should start with the shock ~80% compressed, but I know Billy will tell me my gut feeling is incorrect and I need to set it mostly extended to start with. Also how much total shock travel do I need or is common? My rudimentary preliminary measurement says I only have 4" of total shock travel (need to remove the shock and take a better measurement) and I am guessing that is kind of on the short side. I will likely be ordering some good double adjustable shocks before I get done with the project, so I am looking for some advice there as well.

Thanks everyone for all the great dialog… Keep it up!
1956 Ford Tube Chassis Dragster, 400 Blown, Injected, Alky
1970 Chevelle Street Car

User avatar
BillyShope
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:03 am
Location: Orlando, FL
Contact:

Re: 4 Link IC Height

#19 Post by BillyShope » Fri May 22, 2009 5:27 am

Dave Morgan wrote:
In theory, 100% is a good thing to aim at because that’s when the force vector coming off the IC is aimed directly at the Center of Gravity (CG), which is by definition 100%.
Dave
Whoops! I think I've found the problem. You're not using the same definition for "percent antisquat" as is used in the automotive industry.

Now, as I pointed out in another thread with regard to "spring stored energy," there's nothing wrong with an individual using his own definitions for words and terms. It just makes it a bit more difficult to communicate.

In this case, anyone reading your post and then trying to make sense out of a discussion on the subject in an SAE paper or any reference book used by automotive engineers would likely end up totally confused.

What you describe as 100% antisquat would be way, WAY over 100% in the definition used by suspension engineers. And, I agree, this would be a "bunch."

The accepted SAE usage would have the force vector, at 100% antisquat, acting on a 100% line passing through the rear tire patch and the intersection of two other lines, one a vertical line through the front tire patch and the other a horizontal line through the center of gravity. An instant center located anywhere on the described 100% line would provide 100% antisquat.

Hope this clears up any confusion.
http://home.earthlink.net/~whshope
over 150,000 page views

bracketracer
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:14 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: 4 Link IC Height

#20 Post by bracketracer » Fri May 22, 2009 5:44 am

Bigblock, there is NO substitute for double adjustable shocks IMO!!! They are a great for tuning... As far as shocks I had a drag car that liked to be "on" the shock bumper on launch!!! and only had 4" of travel on the shock but my new car has 7" of travel and only uses less than a inch of travel in eather direction from rest. Every car will be different and with out a logger to log shock travel it will take some time to find out what the car wants to give you that best short time and to be constant, after all that is what we are looking for right :mrgreen: Short of having a logger a good vid of the car on the starting line will tell youa ton of good info if you can read what it's telling you ;) ....
With the logger and after making under 10 passes I am in the ball park with my new car and the setting is no where close to the 100% anti squat line :scratch: ...


Billy, Good to see you understand that most of us here are NOT engineers :thumb:

User avatar
BillyShope
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:03 am
Location: Orlando, FL
Contact:

Re: 4 Link IC Height

#21 Post by BillyShope » Fri May 22, 2009 6:04 am

bracketracer wrote: Billy, Good to see you understand that most of us here are NOT engineers :thumb:
And I certainly wouldn't encourage you to become engineers. I managed to make a living at it, but there's gotta be a better way!

Anyway, I would just point out that use of the SAE definition for antisquat offers a distinct advantage. (Incidentally, all of the 4link software...as far as I know...calculates percent antisquat by the SAE definition.) Once you've found the degree of antisquat with which you and your car are happy, you need no longer concern yourself with IC location (how far out and how far up). Any 4link configuration which will yield the same 4link software percent antisquat will provide the same performance. You can even use a parallel 4BAR (not 4LINK) suspension, setting the angles for the desired antisquat, and be confident of the outcome.
http://home.earthlink.net/~whshope
over 150,000 page views

User avatar
Mike Peters
Posts: 930
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:48 pm
Location: Wichita, KS

Re: 4 Link IC Height

#22 Post by Mike Peters » Fri May 22, 2009 11:24 am

One of the best, most concise and well-explained articles on 4 links was written by occasional DragStuff visitor Patrick Budd. With permission from PBudd, John has posted several of Patrick's articles right here on DS and they're called "The Budd Files". You can look for it in the tech article section John has conveniently created or just click on this link -

http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/P ... uning.html
"If winning was easy, losers would be doing it"

User avatar
BillyShope
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:03 am
Location: Orlando, FL
Contact:

Re: 4 Link IC Height

#23 Post by BillyShope » Sat May 23, 2009 5:35 am

Mike Peters wrote:One of the best, most concise and well-explained articles on 4 links was written by occasional DragStuff visitor Patrick Budd. With permission from PBudd, John has posted several of Patrick's articles right here on DS and they're called "The Budd Files". You can look for it in the tech article section John has conveniently created or just click on this link -

http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/P ... uning.html
Antisquat has nothing to do with ring and pinion forces. You could replace the driveshaft with electric motors at each wheel and you'd still have antisquat. Antisquat is a function of the suspension geometry and the traction force at the tire patch.

Since the IC location defines the antisquat, it would be impossible for the antisquat to change with a fixed IC location.

By changing the spread and the link angles, you can change the forces in the individual links, but, so long as the IC is unaffected, performance is unchanged. The remainder of the car cannot "see" what is happening in the rear axle assembly as changes are made in the geometry. All it "sees" is a resultant force acting at the instant center.
http://home.earthlink.net/~whshope
over 150,000 page views

nj
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 2:28 am
Location: jeannette pa
Contact:

Re: 4 Link IC Height

#24 Post by nj » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:46 pm

BillyShope wrote:
bracketracer wrote: Billy, Good to see you understand that most of us here are NOT engineers :thumb:
And I certainly wouldn't encourage you to become engineers. I managed to make a living at it, but there's gotta be a better way!

Anyway, I would just point out that use of the SAE definition for antisquat offers a distinct advantage. (Incidentally, all of the 4link software...as far as I know...calculates percent antisquat by the SAE definition.) Once you've found the degree of antisquat with which you and your car are happy, you need no longer concern yourself with IC location (how far out and how far up). Any 4link configuration which will yield the same 4link software percent antisquat will provide the same performance. You can even use a parallel 4BAR (not 4LINK) suspension, setting the angles for the desired antisquat, and be confident of the outcome.
http://home.earthlink.net/~whshope
over 150,000 page views

So using common four link software for high horsepower cars do we want antisquat above or below 100% ?

User avatar
supernova
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:35 pm
Location: Ft.Worth Tx

Re: 4 Link IC Height

#25 Post by supernova » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:59 pm

Great post Dave!
I went to one of your classes last year and will go again. Keep up the good work.
Blackhoodmafia!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

1972 Nova SS
572 C.I. BBC

Best to date: 1/8
et: 5.28
mph: 134
new wt. 3340 lbs

User avatar
BillyShope
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:03 am
Location: Orlando, FL
Contact:

Re: 4 Link IC Height

#26 Post by BillyShope » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:16 am

nj wrote: So using common four link software for high horsepower cars do we want antisquat above or below 100% ?
I would shoot for 100% antisquat (SAE), regardless of the value of horsepower per pound. With values over 100%, the rear of the car rises on launch; below, it squats.

Now, some have, over the years, considered either rise or squat as being desirable. Back in the fifties, they saw the car dropping down on the axle and thought, "Wow! That's really gotta be loading those tires." Then, somebody gave it some more thought and said, "Wait a minute! If you're pushing the rear of the car up, that means you're pushing the tires down into the strip surface." So, everybody wanted their car to rise (like those sixties Mopars).

Actually (and only for a few milliseconds), both camps are correct. Yes, when the rear squats, it's loading the rear tires and, yes, when the rear rises, it's loading the rear tires. But, in each case, it's only for a few milliseconds and then the loading reverses. In other words, each case produces an oscillatory loading of the rear tires.

Consider the case where the rear of the car rises on launch. As the rear of the car accelerates upward, the loading of the rear tires increases OVER that of weight transfer alone. But, as the rear of the car approaches its maximum upward travel, its DEcelerated, producing an UNloading of the rear tires.

So, with either squat or rise, you have the rear of the car bobbing up and down and producing an oscillatory loading of the rear tires. If there's a net gain with either, it would have to be very small and, in the meantime, the suspension geometry has been changed. This, coupled with the principle that oscillatory loading is generally avoided in friction applications (e.g., wheel hop during braking) brings me to the 100% recommendation.
http://www.racetec.cc/shope

bracketracer
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:14 pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: 4 Link IC Height

#27 Post by bracketracer » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:51 pm

Billy at 100% tell me what the rear is going to do as far as travel??? Are the shocks extend or compress???

User avatar
BillyShope
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:03 am
Location: Orlando, FL
Contact:

Re: 4 Link IC Height

#28 Post by BillyShope » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:36 am

bracketracer wrote:Billy at 100% tell me what the rear is going to do as far as travel??? Are the shocks extend or compress???
As indicated above, the shocks (and rear springs) are not affected during launch with 100% antisquat.

With 100% antisquat, ALL of the weight transfer is carried through the links, leaving the rear shocks and springs with nothing to do. In other words, they're just going along for the ride.
http://www.racetec.cc/shope

User avatar
John_Heard
Site Admin
Posts: 5734
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 11:20 am
Location: Resume Speed, Kansas
Contact:

Re: 4 Link IC Height

#29 Post by John_Heard » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:43 am

Billy, you ever seen a car without shocks able to launch?

We've got to get you away from the computer and out to the the track bud..

User avatar
BillyShope
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:03 am
Location: Orlando, FL
Contact:

Re: 4 Link IC Height

#30 Post by BillyShope » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:19 am

I stand by what I said. I did not, however, say that you should run without shocks. What I said is correct for 100% antisquat. Depart from that...even a tad...and you'll definitely need shocks.
http://www.racetec.cc/shope

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests