Kinda brainstorming...

MSD Digital Ignition Programming & Troubleshooting, Playing with Dots, Slew and other fun toys for traction challanged racers

Moderator: John_Heard

Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
sverbus
Posts: 418
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:03 am

Kinda brainstorming...

#1 Post by sverbus » Wed May 13, 2009 11:32 pm

This really isn't a "problem" really but an annoyance with my car. I recently rode in a good friends 69 Chevelle that has a 496 in it that is 13:1 compression. When he just looks at the ignition the damn thing starts on a DIME! I mean like RIGHT NOW! he's got a MSD 6al with Billet Distributor and has the light springs in it which I beleive give full advance by like 3grand or something? Total he's got about 37 or so he says timing. And like I said, it just comes right to life whether its hot or whatever. NO start retard or anything.

My nova with 15:1 434 is a royal pain in the ass to start. If it's hot out, it will barely turn over and I have 2gauge wire going straight from trunk to starter, Optima battery. Tilton high torque starter and if it turns over normal speed...it wants to continually kick back at me and really grumble and puff back through the carb on me until it starts. I have MSD everything. Locked out distributor set at 36* total and I have a 2 step retard with start retard and high rpm retard. I've got the retard set to pull out 20* till 1500rpm then it puts the timing back in full.

Do you guys think I'm pulling to much timing out and I'm actually retarding it to much in order to start the car properly? Should I maybe rewire it (because it's a wiring change not a pill) to pull out 10* instead of the 20*? With my compression, high-end starter, and 112 octane fuel it should fire right up I'd think. My old 355 with probably 10k less money in parts started easier than this thing :)

Thanks for the help guys!

Scott
'70 Nova
434 small block
Best so far of 10.51 @ 131mph with a best so far 60' /1.46

User avatar
John_Heard
Site Admin
Posts: 5683
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 11:20 am
Location: Resume Speed, Kansas
Contact:

Re: Kinda brainstorming...

#2 Post by John_Heard » Thu May 14, 2009 7:26 am

If you pull all the plugs out, does it spin over real fast / no effort?

User avatar
sverbus
Posts: 418
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:03 am

Re: Kinda brainstorming...

#3 Post by sverbus » Thu May 14, 2009 2:42 pm

Well I recently had all the plugs out so that I could get the valves set back to normal after getting the car out of storage and it seemed to turn over pretty easy...actually was a pain in the ass to move it just a "hair" to get TDC :)

It's been like this since I put all that MSD ignition in (which was put in the same time as the 434)
'70 Nova
434 small block
Best so far of 10.51 @ 131mph with a best so far 60' /1.46

User avatar
John_Heard
Site Admin
Posts: 5683
Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 11:20 am
Location: Resume Speed, Kansas
Contact:

Re: Kinda brainstorming...

#4 Post by John_Heard » Thu May 14, 2009 2:52 pm

How much cranking compression does it have?

User avatar
rustbucket
Posts: 566
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:36 pm
Location: central alabama

Re: Kinda brainstorming...

#5 Post by rustbucket » Thu May 14, 2009 2:58 pm

oh boy... I just spoke with msd yesterday concerning the same problem. Im using a multi-stage retard, billet dist with locked out timing and a 6al box. My multi stage box does have a start retard function that is connected but doesnt seem to make much difference. The small print says the start retard function will only work with a dist with fly weights. :evil: :evil: :evil:
That means we are both S.O.L called msd to confirm. They suggested buying a dedicated start retard box and said it will connect to my other stuff. All for the small fee of $179.00
406sbc, powerglide, nitrous
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DssW5vc_t3k

User avatar
sverbus
Posts: 418
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:03 am

Re: Kinda brainstorming...

#6 Post by sverbus » Thu May 14, 2009 3:38 pm

WHAT?? Not that I don't believe you...but what does that have to do with the dist whether or not it has flyweights on it? I mean, doesn't the retard box interrupt the 6al and tell it to hold back the signal to fire the coil? I mean it's not even wired into the dist. If that's the case then that doesn't make a bit of sense (which wouldn't surprised me one damn bit)

Did the guy explain how the dist causes it not to work if it's locked out? Shouldn't it just cause a change in the 6al box itself?

Thanks for the headsup though Rust...that's good to know...I feel like possibly throwing this thing through their window. :pissed:
'70 Nova
434 small block
Best so far of 10.51 @ 131mph with a best so far 60' /1.46

User avatar
rustbucket
Posts: 566
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:36 pm
Location: central alabama

Re: Kinda brainstorming...

#7 Post by rustbucket » Thu May 14, 2009 6:29 pm

Brand: MSD Ignition
Product Line: MSD Three Stage Retard Controls
Part Type: Timing Controllers, Electronic
Part Number: MSD-8970
Circuitry: Analog
Controls Ignition Advance: No
Controls Ignition Retard: Yes
Use with Locked Distributor: No
Controller Activation: Programmable
Adjustable: Yes
Adjustment Style: Pills
Ignition Box Required: Yes
Compatible with Multiple Coil Ignitions: No
Quantity: Sold individually.

Timing Controller, Three Stage Retard, Analog, Programmable, Each

* C
Straight from summit. go to online summit racing and punch in your box, and the foot notes for your box will come up.
406sbc, powerglide, nitrous
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DssW5vc_t3k

User avatar
rustbucket
Posts: 566
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:36 pm
Location: central alabama

Re: Kinda brainstorming...

#8 Post by rustbucket » Thu May 14, 2009 7:15 pm

by the way, we have broken 2 flywheels when the motor kicks back. I took my dist. apart and put the flyweights and lightest springs back in untill I can get a start retard. On the transbrake my timing will already all be in.
406sbc, powerglide, nitrous
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DssW5vc_t3k

waterdog
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 7:01 am
Location: Tampa Bay, FL

Re: Kinda brainstorming...

#9 Post by waterdog » Thu May 14, 2009 8:56 pm

Damn it ! Back in the day I chased my tail over a detonation problem and figured it was the box. I pulled that sucker out and went back to manually setting the timing. I tried it again for the start/retard with my new motor and that didn't work so it's back on the shelf. I guess I'll be buying a starter saver so I can lock the advance again, man I swear there was nothing in the instructions about a locked advance. Walt :?
1970 Nova SS 3580lb, Shafiroff 434 na, 9.94@135.8

User avatar
rustbucket
Posts: 566
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:36 pm
Location: central alabama

Re: Kinda brainstorming...

#10 Post by rustbucket » Fri May 15, 2009 9:56 am

yep. that would have effected sales
406sbc, powerglide, nitrous
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DssW5vc_t3k

User avatar
sverbus
Posts: 418
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:03 am

Re: Kinda brainstorming...

#11 Post by sverbus » Fri May 15, 2009 10:14 am

wow...right now I'm trying to turn over a 15:1 motor, with 37* timing so no wonder it's kicking back at me constantly?? i thought only to much "retarded" would cause it to kickback like that...
'70 Nova
434 small block
Best so far of 10.51 @ 131mph with a best so far 60' /1.46

User avatar
rustbucket
Posts: 566
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:36 pm
Location: central alabama

Re: Kinda brainstorming...

#12 Post by rustbucket » Fri May 15, 2009 11:20 am

slightly off topic question...
On a race car using a transbrake or 2-step, How would you benefit from locked out timing?
With light springs the timing would be in around 1500 rpms. Ive ran mine both ways and cant tell any difference.
406sbc, powerglide, nitrous
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DssW5vc_t3k

User avatar
sverbus
Posts: 418
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:03 am

Re: Kinda brainstorming...

#13 Post by sverbus » Mon May 18, 2009 9:57 am

The reason I run my car locked out is because I foot-brake it and it just really launches like a raped ape when at the track, but to be honest, I didn't test it with how it launches with the dist setup to have advance.

I mean, if I put the small springs in, all the advance is in by what? 3000 or so? Or sooner than that? Maybe it would be easier to start then cause I could set the MSD up to only pull 10* out and that would be very easy to start I'd think.

Thoughts?
'70 Nova
434 small block
Best so far of 10.51 @ 131mph with a best so far 60' /1.46

User avatar
79 Camaro
Posts: 738
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Caney, Ks

Re: Kinda brainstorming...

#14 Post by 79 Camaro » Mon May 18, 2009 10:25 am

rustbucket wrote:slightly off topic question...
On a race car using a transbrake or 2-step, How would you benefit from locked out timing?
With light springs the timing would be in around 1500 rpms. Ive ran mine both ways and cant tell any difference.
There is no real performance advantage to having the timing locked out opposed to not when launching on a 2 step, depending on what springs you have in the distributor and when its bringing all the timing in, along with what you are launching at. But the main reason I like it locked out is because it is alot easier to set the timing without all that reving the rpm's up. Kinda hard to do with one person.. But, when I went to a lock out type setup, I also got a crank trigger and I will say this, I love this setup and wont have a motor with out it..

Hope this helps

Adam
"THE THROTTLE IS THE DEVIL" By Mr. Willis
"ALL I SEEN WAS HOOD!" By Mr. Heard
MAKO RS-1979
Sponsored By:
Total Removal Contracting-Tim Rogers

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest