Timing issue again HELP

[dadnova]

A buddy just bought a 350cu crate engine for his PU. It runs at 65 degrees BTDC at an idel.

Piston at TDC the timing mark on the balancer reads 0. I had this issue once before on another car and it was the distributoe fazing, took it apart and moved the bottom gear 180* and the problem was fixed. On his truck we fazed the distributor and nothing, installed a new ignition system and distributor and nothing.
It still reads 65* at idel.

HELP

[supernova]

I wonder if the ignition is right? I have seen induction systems so slow with a bad ignition cause time to be set high like that. I built a 468 for a friend that bought a low $$ ignition for his build and all it did was cause problems. Maybe something to look at.

[dadnova]

replaced the ignition system and still the same thing.

[hugger73hatch]

Make sure the rotor is not off (ahead of where it should be). I did this one time and felt like an idiot. I would pull the distributor, get the engine on TDC compression on #1and then set your distributor, making sure the rotor tip is set a hair before the #1 terminal on the cap and see what you got. You may have to move the oil pump pickup with a screwdriver to get it to line up and fall into place. I had the same thing going on before and once I got it right never had anymore problems.

[sc racing]

Is the timing mark at 12 oclock on the cover or about 2 oclock on a tab. Ill bet you got the wrong balancer/tab combo. How did you find tdc, I would do it with a piston stop so its about as accurate as you can get without pulling stuff apart.

[dadnova]

Put a side through dial indicator in the spark plug hole made for finding TDC on built engines and found TDC and the timing mark on the balancer read 0. The timing mark is at 2 O Clock. Kind of thought the same thing at first( wrong balancer) but at 0 timing and piston at TDC at the same time ( has to be the right one) .

[sc racing]

Is the timing "groove" on the balancer inline with the keyway slot? Im pretty sure if its the 2 oclock type they line up.Did the balancer come with the new crate engine or is it off the old one. If you cant figure it out and it runs fine leave it as is.

[hugger73hatch]

Just thought about something else. If you are running a MSD box and using a dial back light I have been told it can cause problems. I have never had any problems, but I know some people have.

[dadnova]

Not sure about the balancer as I did not install it, but I asked him and he said it only had 1 key way.
I heard the same thing about the timing lights. I disagree though as countless guys use them and when I checked them out compaired to the MSD, Snap on and others they all read the same.

Several of us are just lost on this one.

[hugger73hatch]

Does it run like crap? Hard to start? Also is it an HEI with vacuum advance? I still think it might be off 1 terminal. That can be checked easy enough by moving the wires around the cap one terminal clockwise, i.e. the #1 wire now goes where the #8 was etc. all the way around. When I did it the car started fine and all but developed a mis under hard acceleration.

[dadnova]

Doesn't run to bad, stumbles a little when taking off. ( I think too much fuel from acc. pump, and a acc. cam change is needed). Moved the wires back and forth several time each way and nothing still runs at 65* no matter what we due.
Easy to start runs OK should have more power I think, adjusted the valves yesterday and they were set too tight, had to back them off 2 1/2 + turns to make them cladder. Hyd. lifters
Does not mis-fire at all, drives ok, just can't figure out why at 65*.

[sg7365]

As long as you know for sure about the following things:
1. TDC is exactly TDC for number 1 piston. Alot of times I like to take a very good look at this when rebuilding or even buying a whole engine. When the timing cover is removed before buttoning everything up and verifying TDC. Ensuring the dots lined up on both gears. Had a stock gear set set one time and the timing marks were 180 out and it kinda ran like crap but it was dead wrong. 35 years building engines and it finally happened to me.

2. Its also a good idea to get the correct damper. 400s have a counter balance weight on it.
3. Ensure the damper is correctly marked to TDC. Emission controlled engines after 1970 have the TDC mark (0 degree) 9 degrees different on the damper with a corresponding difference in the timing-cover-tab degree marker. Be sure to use the correct combination of damper and degree-marker tab on the front cover. You will see this when number one is at TDC, now just by eyeballing this and by looking at the timing tag. If its 6 or 7 or even 10 degrees off, you'll know you have the wrong tag for the damper-so you'll have the wrong tag for the damper you have, so it must be change. Sometimes I just made my own.

3. Distributor installation...With number one at TDC. With both valves on number one closed and number 6 cylinder valves rocking, this means number one is in the firing position. Now turn the engine backward (I like to go forward instead of backward and turn it around twice) about 15 degrees until you have a static timing figure set on the timing tag to degree wheel. Depending on the year and type of engine you have, this can be anything between 12 and 0 degrees BTDC, so now turn it 8 degrees BTDC.
Position the Oil-Pump Shaft by looking down the distributor hole and ensuring the oil pump tang SLOTS are lined up with number 5 intake rocker. Use a long screwdriver to align the tang and then just rest it atop the center of the distributor hole to #5 intake. If you need to make corrections, make them slight on the tang and then re-check again. I found out by doing this by the screwdriver method is easy than by eyeballing that big gap.

4. Position the Rotor Cap with No. 1 cylinder. Mark the number one 1 plug wire post on the distributor cap. I like to use a black marker. Now mark the similiar line and transfer that mark to the distributor body. Do this as accurately as possible. Now turn the rotor so its leading edge is directly above the mark you just made on the distributor. Now this is just approximately because its exact firing position will depend upon the centrifugal and vacuum advance at the time. Using a tape measure, mark a line on body 1.7 inch back from number one (1-11/16 inch approx). For an HEI this dimension should be 2 1/4 inches. Next turn the rotor counterclockwise (opposite to its normal direction) until its leading edge is over the new mark you just made.
Now position the distributor in the block--lowering the distributor into the hole, as the drive gear on the distributor engages with the cam gear, the rotor will turn clockwise towards the firing position from the 1.7 inch or 2 1/4 inch retard position you previously set. You should feel the tang engage and you might have to jiggle it a little to fit. You should be staticly around 8 degrees..

I read on another site, someone was using a LED timing light and that will be way off. You should use a digital or a NORMAL timing light. I think you mentioned a vacuum can. Are you timing this with the can blocked off while your timing this?
I've been a tooth off every once in a while and it runs just like what you said. You know when its right, when the timing is correct and by light. I still like to run a vacuum check to attain the highest vacuum. Heck I used to use a vacuum gage in my stock vehicles to set the timing.

I just mentioned everything like everyone else did and put it in a somewhat chronological order that makes sense.
My biggest problems were making sure the tang in the oil pump drive shaft were correctly alined with number 5 intake pushrod.
I hope this doesn't contain 60000 characters...hahaha
Good luck and let us know.

[dadnova]

Yes we did all that, between the two of us here there is about 60 years of working on engines, this is why we are so lost. The only thing we havent done is look at the timing chain gear marks, but as I said its someones engine in his truck. 1962 so no smog or vacumn can. We even ran a hot wire to the coil while disconnecting the entire wiring loop, as to not get a faulse reading due from the Tach or anything else, as the old Tachs would sometimes give a faulse reading.
Its a real brain tease, in thinking even if the timing gear marks were off it would not equal the extra 50* unless they were way off, just did not want to tear apart the new engine, the only good thing is its in a 1962 PU and there is room to due it with it in the truck.

I told him to call GM crate engines and see what if any thing they have to say as we did not want to void his warrenty if any.

[John_Heard]

Several people have mentioned the timing light - have you actually tried a different one yet? A non-dial back model? You didn't have a brain fart and put it on the wrong plug wire or something did ya?