Ok, so I'm open to suggestions... Twin Turbo & EFI

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wikd69
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Ok, so I'm open to suggestions... Twin Turbo & EFI

#1 Post by wikd69 » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:12 pm

Ok campers, help me out here.

If I was interested in swapping my dual carbs and roots setup for either blow-through or EFI behind twin turbos, what and where would you suggest I start ?

My 'little' 427 big block has a good bottom end, high flow (for this build) dart heads and a pretty hard core top end (billet cam, solid bush rollers, thick wall push rods and shaft rockers, etc.). I'm making somewhere quite a bit north of 800 hp at the flywheel but there is a lot of engine weight and old school iron in the build. Add to that all the original sheet metal and glass in the body together with the heavy back half frame components, etc. - it's a lot of iron to push down the track. My best ET with this build is 9.75 @ 139 mph. The current build is pretty stout, but it takes a lot of grunt to get it across the stripe that quickly.

All this is great, but I'm getting the itch to try something different and I need to start gathering info and facts.

I have a pretty big investment in this OEM 4-bolt 454 block, blower pistons and eagle bottom end. It's 4340 stuff with heavy forged pistons and it's been malloried out the kazoo for balancing. Pretty smooth and pretty tough, but resulting in a pretty small displacement motor. And, I call this a 427, but at .030 over, it's actually around 434 ci. 427 just sounds better, ya know ? :thumb: :smt003

Would it be worth the horsepower and torque gain to swap out the current crank, rods and pistons for a bigger displacement stroker kit ? I could prolly push this 4-bolt 454 block to what, 505 ci or so ? More cubes, but would the cost be worth the gain ? My little 427 performs like a small block with the short throw and sweet power band and it works well with my roots system. I don't know how a bigger displacement motor works with blow-through or EFI behind a turbo system. Is my current 427 build a good base for this new turbo setup ?

If I step up the displacement I would end up needing to push more air and could hit the wall with these virgin Dart 310's. They have the bigger 2.30 intakes and have been port matched but otherwise are virgin. I don't know where the 310's might stop working. I'd prefer not to have to port the heads or swap them out, but I don't have a clue when these puppies will stop working.

Then, there's the whole matching the turbo plenum diameter and injector size with the EFI or blow through system, spec'ed to work with my cam profile and advance setup, TH400 and t-brake, gearing, etc.

Without spinning this too far out, what would you guys suggest ? Would you take the easy route and just hang a set of turbos with a blow through carb on this little motor ? Or what ? Keeping the current small displacement motor and swapping out the power adder *might* make more horsepower, will certainly do it with less weight, but other than having some fun new hardware to play with, am I gaining anything ?

I'm open to suggestions and know there's a ton of talent and experience out there with you guys. :mrgreen:
1969 ProStreet Camaro RS Best 9.75@139 1.46 60'
Blown 427 BBC, TH400 w/Brake, Back-Half Ladderbar
Narrowed 12-Bolt, 4.10 Gears, Spool, Moser 33 Spline

http://www.marsh-racing.com/harrys_camaro-1.htm

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ytnova
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Re: Ok, so I'm open to suggestions... Twin Turbo & EFI

#2 Post by ytnova » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:12 pm

How fast do you really want to go with your car? It runs and drives and you have fun with it, correct? Changing over to turbos is expensive to say the least. How about just going EFI and maybe E85, probably see some pretty good gains. It would get your foot in the door with a known setup so you can learn and take some of the money out of a fusture swap. You could swap over to a turbo setup, but spending 5k+ doing it is gonna be real easy, especially if you want to make big power. You could use your BBC, but turbos are the cheap part, it is all of the other stuff that adds up, headers, wastegates, blow off valves, EFI, injectors, fuel pump(s), gear change, v-bands, flanges, tubing, intercoolers, etc. With that being said, twin 75-76mm on E85 could make a easy 1200-1500hp and drive everywhere :twisted:
I am not really sure what the question is, but I am pretty sure the answer is Big Block.

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Re: Ok, so I'm open to suggestions... Twin Turbo & EFI

#3 Post by wikd69 » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:00 pm

ytnova wrote:How fast do you really want to go with your car? It runs and drives and you have fun with it, correct? Changing over to turbos is expensive to say the least. How about just going EFI and maybe E85, probably see some pretty good gains. It would get your foot in the door with a known setup so you can learn and take some of the money out of a fusture swap. You could swap over to a turbo setup, but spending 5k+ doing it is gonna be real easy, especially if you want to make big power. You could use your BBC, but turbos are the cheap part, it is all of the other stuff that adds up, headers, wastegates, blow off valves, EFI, injectors, fuel pump(s), gear change, v-bands, flanges, tubing, intercoolers, etc. With that being said, twin 75-76mm on E85 could make a easy 1200-1500hp and drive everywhere :twisted:
Yeah, I make lots of horsepower now and it's plenty quick. I guess I'm more interested in having something new to play with mostly. The idea of building something a lot more complex than what I've done before is pretty attractive. This carb/blower setup was a challenge getting everything running cleanly but I pretty much got there. Now I'd like something new to goof around with.

1200 - 1500hp out of my little big block ? Is that realistic do you think ? 1000 hp is prolly not a huge reach beyond what I'm doing now. Hard to think about making that kind of power with this ride.
1969 ProStreet Camaro RS Best 9.75@139 1.46 60'
Blown 427 BBC, TH400 w/Brake, Back-Half Ladderbar
Narrowed 12-Bolt, 4.10 Gears, Spool, Moser 33 Spline

http://www.marsh-racing.com/harrys_camaro-1.htm

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Re: Ok, so I'm open to suggestions... Twin Turbo & EFI

#4 Post by Bruce69Camaro » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:11 am

Harry, maybe consider this...

Now I actually have no idea what it would cost to do a twin turbo setup, but to me, it sounds costly.

Maybe consider this, my coworker just bought a complete 555, dyno'd at 900+HP for 11K.

Get it setup on a bottle and depending on what you're shooting, instant 1000+HP.

That will make the Camaro run fast...er.... :thumb:
Those who think they know it all have no way of finding out they don't......... :scratch:

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Re: Ok, so I'm open to suggestions... Twin Turbo & EFI

#5 Post by ytnova » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:21 pm

Bruce has a good point, you could always do a pump gas large cube motor and run a small kit for roughly the same price or even less, but either way you are probably going to be doing chassis upgrades as well.
You are having the same dilema I had, I wanted to go faster and be safe while doing it. I had plenty of power, my issues were all chassis related, but I think it was a smarter choice for me to just build another car. There were so many changes that I needed to do in order to take the car to the next level that I couldn't see cutting it up and throwing all of my hard work and money. I feel my nova was safe running in the nine to ten second range and after all, I had reached my goals of getting it deep in the eights. It was time for something new, now I can focus more on going fast.
I am not really sure what the question is, but I am pretty sure the answer is Big Block.

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Re: Ok, so I'm open to suggestions... Twin Turbo & EFI

#6 Post by wikd69 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:07 am

I'm pretty sure that my chassis and drive train is ok for more power, it's all pretty stout. Dunno if I'd want to throw 1200 - 1400 HP at this TH400, but beyond that, the rest of the build should handle it. Swapping over to a glide would be pretty straightforward if it came to that.

I'm not really interested in using a bottle. I'm more interested in the 'systems' aspect of hard metal builds, if ya get my drift. Pure horsepower is not so much the goal, though I am curious in how much grunt I could make with this small displacement motor. I'm fascinated by the huge power yields coming from some of the twin turbo small block builds out there, all in a mix they drive on the street. All of that comes from managing the system, from timing to boost to fuel load, etc. It'd be way cool to arrive at a point where I had that sort of setup in my old Camaro.

And yep, I could make considerably more power with this current build by swapping over to either E85 or straight methanol, adding more boost and maybe opening the heads up a touch. I'm sure I could push this little 427 up over 1000 horsepower without a lot of change. But it'd all be old school grunt, without a lot of finesse, ya know ?

So like I say, the ultimate goal isn't just horsepower and torque, it's more about the next generation of systems management and whatnot for the build. I still don't know if I'll do anything like this, but it sure sounds like it would be fun to do :thumb: :smt003
1969 ProStreet Camaro RS Best 9.75@139 1.46 60'
Blown 427 BBC, TH400 w/Brake, Back-Half Ladderbar
Narrowed 12-Bolt, 4.10 Gears, Spool, Moser 33 Spline

http://www.marsh-racing.com/harrys_camaro-1.htm

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Re: Ok, so I'm open to suggestions... Twin Turbo & EFI

#7 Post by sc68z28 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:18 pm

wikd69 wrote: But it'd all be old school grunt, without a lot of finesse, ya know ?

So like I say, the ultimate goal isn't just horsepower and torque, it's more about the next generation of systems management and whatnot for the build. I still don't know if I'll do anything like this, but it sure sounds like it would be fun to do :thumb: :smt003
I'm hearing you Harry, what is your current C/R and cam specs?
Your long block may be just fine the way it is and ready for the twins w/EFI.
You have +54 cu in on me, mine is now a 380 in SB, (4.156" x 3.50") with just 14 lbs boost I went 159 mph. I know I am a bit lighter (3400#) than you but the 54 cubes should equal that easy.

---Bill.
68 Camaro, 380ci, Procharger, G-force 5 speed, EFI, 7" 2 disc clutch, best ET 8.69 @159
Best 60' vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OLzx5jBo4w

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Re: Ok, so I'm open to suggestions... Twin Turbo & EFI

#8 Post by wikd69 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:37 pm

sc68z28 wrote:
wikd69 wrote: But it'd all be old school grunt, without a lot of finesse, ya know ?

So like I say, the ultimate goal isn't just horsepower and torque, it's more about the next generation of systems management and whatnot for the build. I still don't know if I'll do anything like this, but it sure sounds like it would be fun to do :thumb: :smt003
I'm hearing you Harry, what is your current C/R and cam specs?
Your long block may be just fine the way it is and ready for the twins w/EFI.
You have +54 cu in on me, mine is now a 380 in SB, (4.156" x 3.50") with just 14 lbs boost I went 159 mph. I know I am a bit lighter (3400#) than you but the 54 cubes should equal that easy.

---Bill.
Hey Bill !!! Haven't talked for a while, how ya been ? :)

Geezo, 8.69 @ 159 with a 3400 lb, small block ride !!! Yeah, I'd forgotten how fast and how sweet that ride is !!! :smt003

Yeah, mine weighed in at 3700 lbs with me in it, but that was with the original 990 iron heads. I dropped 70+ lbs when I picked up the Darts and, if I go with the 'twins' <I like that lol>, I'd lose another 100 lbs taking out the blower, intake and drive assembly as well... Obviously, the turbos and piping and such has weight, but all in all, I'd prolly see a significant drop in overall mass. That'd be a win.

Below is my cam card - I really lucked out with this profile - Rob from California Horsepower & Performance suggested it to me originally. This grind *really* likes boost !!!! I'm running about 8.5 static CR. At 12 lbs of boost my DCR is around 13:1 or so. It really wails under load. Prolly one of the best photos I have of the Camaro is me in the water box, making smoke at high boost with the starter standing next me, bent over cringing with his fingers in his ears !!!!!!!! That made me so proud :smt003 :smt003

Everything in the motor is pretty hard core, with forged pistons, 4340 bottom end, solid bush rollers, thick wall pushrods and these new Jesel shaft rockers, etc. I guess my reservation in trying to add more investment in this 'little' 427 was just how radical it would have to be to really make a lot more power, given the small displacement. I consciously made the choice on the 427 build way back when cuz I like the motor, but it didn't seem to lend itself to monster horsepower, ya know ? Dunno, maybe it'll be a good mix with turbos, EFI and that short stroke.

It's still unreal that you're turning the times you are at that mph, at 3400 lbs. I guess my brain is conditioned in an old school mindset with the old school iron I've been playing with. Maybe making the leap to this newer induction and management system on my current long block is not that unreasonable, huh ?

Image
1969 ProStreet Camaro RS Best 9.75@139 1.46 60'
Blown 427 BBC, TH400 w/Brake, Back-Half Ladderbar
Narrowed 12-Bolt, 4.10 Gears, Spool, Moser 33 Spline

http://www.marsh-racing.com/harrys_camaro-1.htm

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Re: Ok, so I'm open to suggestions... Twin Turbo & EFI

#9 Post by supernova » Sun Feb 09, 2014 5:44 pm

IMO I would not do twins I would do a single! IMO :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

One 90mm turbo can make as much power as you will ever need and still be driven on the street. Two will just make things more complicated........
Blackhoodmafia!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

1972 Nova SS
572 C.I. BBC

Best to date: 1/8
et: 5.28
mph: 134
new wt. 3340 lbs

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Re: Ok, so I'm open to suggestions... Twin Turbo & EFI

#10 Post by wikd69 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:39 pm

supernova wrote:IMO I would not do twins I would do a single! IMO :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

One 90mm turbo can make as much power as you will ever need and still be driven on the street. Two will just make things more complicated........
Yes but *twin* turbos would be twice as cool !!!!!!!!!!!! :smt003 :smt003

And more complexity is sort of what I'm looking for. It's the puzzle factory aspect of this that attracts me...

I've been browsing Nelson Racing Engines web pages among others. Those guys are pure evil. And they do beautiful work. And it's that sort of thing which will ultimately piss my wife off :twisted: :thumb:
1969 ProStreet Camaro RS Best 9.75@139 1.46 60'
Blown 427 BBC, TH400 w/Brake, Back-Half Ladderbar
Narrowed 12-Bolt, 4.10 Gears, Spool, Moser 33 Spline

http://www.marsh-racing.com/harrys_camaro-1.htm

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Re: Ok, so I'm open to suggestions... Twin Turbo & EFI

#11 Post by sc68z28 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 11:30 pm

Ya Harry it's been a while, still friends?
A single would be plenty, but the WOW/COOL factor of twins is hard to beat.
For simplicity, put a Procharger on it.

All I'm saying is 427/434 is enough ci to run mid 8's with turbo or centrifugal boost.
With your computer background EFI is a slam dunk.

Not sure if that is the best cam, would be worth researching. It may work just fine.

---Bill.
68 Camaro, 380ci, Procharger, G-force 5 speed, EFI, 7" 2 disc clutch, best ET 8.69 @159
Best 60' vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OLzx5jBo4w

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Re: Ok, so I'm open to suggestions... Twin Turbo & EFI

#12 Post by wikd69 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:11 am

sc68z28 wrote:Ya Harry it's been a while, still friends?
A single would be plenty, but the WOW/COOL factor of twins is hard to beat.
For simplicity, put a Procharger on it.

All I'm saying is 427/434 is enough ci to run mid 8's with turbo or centrifugal boost.
With your computer background EFI is a slam dunk.

Not sure if that is the best cam, would be worth researching. It may work just fine.

---Bill.
Having a mid-8's street car would be way cooler than having a mid-9's street car :smt003

What would you look for in a cam ? This grind really seems to work well for me, but I dunno what might be better. I did leave open the possibility of opening up the exhaust a bit more. I could go with 1.75 or 1.8 ratio rockers for the exhaust - that would increase the lift from .714 to .735 or .756. That might be a better mix, but again, I don't know just what that would do. It would seem to be reasonable to want more exhaust lift than intake in a forced induction setup, but I don't know. I do know that there is a lot more going on with the flow dynamics and scavenging with these hooker longtube supercomps than I understand. I've played with different length extensions on the collectors and it does seem to run better with about 12 inches of extension.

I'd love to be able to hang this motor on a dyno and tweak it. That would be awesome but is not gonna happen.

I still have the D1SC ProCharger but a long while back decided it's just not big enough. I keep meaning to put it on the market and get rid of it but haven't done it yet. You're using an F2, right ? I think that would prolly do the trick for horsepower but it'd be too simple LOL... Like I told chris in that earlier post, the complexity thing is the draw for me with the twin setup.

I'll have to give you a call, its been awhile. I'm not ready to do anything yet motor wise but it's sure a nice thought :)

I ended up spending almost a year with the motor on the stand while I gathered parts and saved up money for more. All in all, it was a pretty expensive year, parts wise though the last round of motor changes really didn't do much to increase horsepower. That build cycle was more about hardening what I had in the motor. New lifters, push rods and rockers, along with a new double roller timing set. I looked at swapping over to a new belt drive but just didn't have room with my stock style water pump. That wouldn't have netted more hp either, it just would have made tuning and tweaking easier.

I keep telling myself that maybe it's time to detune this thing and just play with it on the street, but geezo. It'd be so easy to really turn up the wick at this point. The motor, drive train and everything else is setup to go a lot faster - all I need to do is add more grunt and the way this motor is built, it would not be hard to do. It would really rock to drop this little street car down around 9.0 or below - wouldn't that be cool ? I was blown away when I hit 9.75 - I had no clue just how fast it would be when I did that. I think I'm suffering coming out of the hole at this point. My best 60 has been around 1.43 or so, which is not bad for a 3700 lb machine, but I'm hitting just a bit under 140 at 9.75. As I understand it, that's a high mph for that ET - that tells me I need to get more juice on the bottom end. I re-clocked the cam this last time around (advanced it a couple of degrees) to move the power curve down to help with that but I've not had the chance to really test that out. We'll see.
1969 ProStreet Camaro RS Best 9.75@139 1.46 60'
Blown 427 BBC, TH400 w/Brake, Back-Half Ladderbar
Narrowed 12-Bolt, 4.10 Gears, Spool, Moser 33 Spline

http://www.marsh-racing.com/harrys_camaro-1.htm

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Re: Ok, so I'm open to suggestions... Twin Turbo & EFI

#13 Post by sc68z28 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:08 pm

wikd69 wrote: ...What would you look for in a cam ?
...You're using an F2, right ?
Harry,
I'm not a cam expert, was just curious what you had for specs. Your duration is similar to my old cam 255/262 @ .050", my new cam is bigger.
A turbo cam may need something different. I had the guys at Steve Morris spec mine, he/they know what works.
I'm not saying yours is wrong, but worth researching.

My blower is an old F1 (not the F1-A, -C, -R, or -X) with a 12 rib, not even a cog belt.

---Bill.
68 Camaro, 380ci, Procharger, G-force 5 speed, EFI, 7" 2 disc clutch, best ET 8.69 @159
Best 60' vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OLzx5jBo4w

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Re: Ok, so I'm open to suggestions... Twin Turbo & EFI

#14 Post by sc68z28 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:04 pm

Here's another thought, you say you still have that D1sc, is it a complete kit for your BB?
Could you use it without spending to much $ ?

What I'm thinking is get your feet wet with EFI using the D1sc.
I'd bet an easy 900+ HP with your current 427/434 long block and cam w/the D1.

The math is simple, your current combo in NA should be making 600+ HP, right?
The D1sc should make 12lbs boost with your combo. 12 psi will get you another 480 hp.
600 + 480 =1080 less -100 hp to turn the blower is 980 hp, give or take a little.

900+ hp may not be 8.'s but it should get you in the low 9.'s.
And you get to play with the EFI.
Then down the road go with twins.

Just thinking out load here....

---Bill.
68 Camaro, 380ci, Procharger, G-force 5 speed, EFI, 7" 2 disc clutch, best ET 8.69 @159
Best 60' vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OLzx5jBo4w

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Re: Ok, so I'm open to suggestions... Twin Turbo & EFI

#15 Post by wikd69 » Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:19 am

sc68z28 wrote:Here's another thought, you say you still have that D1sc, is it a complete kit for your BB?
Could you use it without spending to much $ ?

What I'm thinking is get your feet wet with EFI using the D1sc.
I'd bet an easy 900+ HP with your current 427/434 long block and cam w/the D1.

The math is simple, your current combo in NA should be making 600+ HP, right?
The D1sc should make 12lbs boost with your combo. 12 psi will get you another 480 hp.
600 + 480 =1080 less -100 hp to turn the blower is 980 hp, give or take a little.

900+ hp may not be 8.'s but it should get you in the low 9.'s.
And you get to play with the EFI.
Then down the road go with twins.

Just thinking out load here....

---Bill.
Bill,

I spoke with the tech guys at ATI a year or two back about that D1SC and my baby big block. They said the supercharger was advertised to make around 925 hp in an ideal setting - read 'on the dyno with a perfect tune'. That's about 100 hp more than I'm making now with this roots system. I really believe that I can crank another 100+ hp out of my current setup without too much strain so the idea of making the major swap over to the D1SC doesn't have a lot of appeal at this point. Maybe an F1 or F2, but that doesn't present enough of a departure for me.

So that's sort of where I got into the twin turbo concept. A complex solution but one that could scale up significantly if needed. And something that would be a hoot to build :thumb: :smt003

So for those of you in the know, if I did want to start exploring turbo builds, what size turbos would I want to look at ? As stated prior, I'm running a set of big valve Dart 310's with 8.5:1 static compression, at 434 ci (.030 bbc 427). Would I want to spin a set of 87 mm turbos ? I don't yet have a sense of how big too big might be here.
1969 ProStreet Camaro RS Best 9.75@139 1.46 60'
Blown 427 BBC, TH400 w/Brake, Back-Half Ladderbar
Narrowed 12-Bolt, 4.10 Gears, Spool, Moser 33 Spline

http://www.marsh-racing.com/harrys_camaro-1.htm

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