Cross plates vs. Perimeter plates

[Craig W.]

Link to the plate Black widow plate..
http://www.induction-solutions.com/prod ... kWidow.htm

Sorry, i got the name wrong and was calling it the widow maker... lol

He may modify it (my understanding is he doesn't), but that looks just like a Victor Jr. plate to me.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-70014/?rtype=10

That picture is interesting. The lines aren't the same length.

[supernova]

The class I run has a rule of one entry point for nitrous and one entry point for fuel only, one solenoid each, on a limited nitrous pill of .078. When I mentioned that to Steve he said he would have to build a plate and that he really dosen't have single point entry plates and quoted a very high price just to do the plate nothing else. I bought the wilson system complete with noids and all for just 200.00 more than he wanted the custom plate. He made me feel like the price was high to drive my away from bothering him with this type of system......

So I went else where...... I sold my NX system and bought the Wilson system.........I think it will do just fine!!!!
Now I'm not saying anything bad about Steve other than it didn't work out..........

[8secpumpgas]

cross bar

[Craig W.]

Well my new plate arrived yesterday. I decided to just go with the good ol' NOS double cross. The Big Shot has worked really well for me, so I thought I might as well stick pretty close to what I have experience with. Plus it was a lot cheaper since I didn't need anthing but the plate itself.

I should have some results of initial testing next weekend. Too bad I have hockey tickets in Nashville this weekend...the weather is going to be perfect for racing.

[silvanova]

Did you get the crossbar plate or the new crosshair?

[Craig W.]

I went with the old style NOS double cross bar plate. I did some reading on the new cross hair plate and its not rated to flow as much.

So far, I'm really pleased with the new plate. I can't really say if its making any more power than the Big Shot. A few other changes have been made. But the car is quicker and that's what its all about

[ERV JR]

The class I run has a rule of one entry point for nitrous and one entry point for fuel only, one solenoid each, on a limited nitrous pill of .078. When I mentioned that to Steve he said he would have to build a plate and that he really dosen't have single point entry plates and quoted a very high price just to do the plate nothing else. I bought the wilson system complete with noids and all for just 200.00 more than he wanted the custom plate. He made me feel like the price was high to drive my away from bothering him with this type of system......

So I went else where...... I sold my NX system and bought the Wilson system.........I think it will do just fine!!!!
Now I'm not saying anything bad about Steve other than it didn't work out..........

He jacked up his prices in the last couple years, I called him about flowing my bigshot and he said like 250 , I sat on my ass and life got in the way also. well abput 2 years later I pm him on Yb and its almost 500 now for the same plate. Also his answers on YB have turned into bullshit answers lately. Most the time now he is doing the shit He got bad at Monte and Tubecarz for , he says call me so we can talk about it, or I can take of you, we have something that may work. We can dicuss this futher. Thought the forum was to answer questions not sell work. lol.
I say buy the crosshair plate or the cold fusion plate, use your noids. Get a digi set and a digi scale and flow it your self.

[John_Heard]

Not to point at Steve, but has anyone that has paid these guys to "flow" their plate actually received data that shows what the plate will flow at what PSI, with x jets, with x solenoid?

Most of the guys I've talked to that have sent their shit in end up with a piece of paper that just shows a general tune up. Now I know you get these guys phone/email advice etc. and all when you're a customer, which can be invaluable, but I've got to wonder what "flow" a plate really means.

[Dave Koehler]

I don't post often but after reading this thread I had some thoughts. OH NO!

1: When running jet limited classes you look to improve the flow path as much as possible so twists, turns and other restrictions don't hinder the jet itself. One way of doing that is to use the biggest noid allowed on the nitrous side.

If you don't have a rule against it the Combo-Flo air mini noid fits the bill due to it's design.
Std electric noids have the nitrous flow nitrous going in, turning up, turning left, turning left again to go out the noid. All these turns hinder flow. It's hydraulics 101 stuff and any basic flow testing confirms it. The mini airnoid design is what I call a High Port. Kind of like a great cylinder head design. The inlet is a direct line of sight to the orifice. Nitrous or fuel goes in, makes 1 turn and goes out. That's where the giant flow numbers on these things comes from in addition to the large orifice size and piston lift.

2: As John Heard knows the -4 line is a cork. Short is better. Also shop around for the hose that has the largest Crimped inside diameter. They do vary depending on the manufacturer. Buy a short hose from each to find out. Check with your local hydraulics hose guy also.

3: Flowing a system, is a huge time consuming, non profit job. I hate doing it. When someone actually does it you should wince hard at the cost, then pay it. If you don't wince the chances are it's not actually being done on that particular system. If you spent 600 bucks on a plate deal, there should be another 1000 bucks worth of time flowing it...and that's still not a money maker. It usually winds up being less than minimum wage per hour. Would people buy enough of them for the seller to make a living? Probably not since magazine articles lead everyone to think they can rotate the earth and be World Champion for less than 500 bucks....on the first day.

In all fairness when an independent nitrous shop works with the same mfg jet and plate all the time the chances are very good that they will all flow "within a +/- range". Hence the reason you usually get numbers on a paper that look just like your neighbors flowed system. Is it a rip? Not really. The word flowed is being used rather loosely though. Like some mfg that sell shiney "flowed" jets for 3 bucks. Come on now. That only occurred on the first Beta jets, if at all.

In the end look at the price. It was affordable, even cheap, for the HP potential promised was it not? The seller has done the leg work and knows what range it is in. Since every engine is different in what tune it likes you still have to tune it anyway. It is also important to remember that you are not just buying parts. The parts are nothing. You are really buying knowledge which is priceless.

4: As a result of nitrous "flowing" being a non profit center and when Nitrous Master came about I tried to put as much info as possible in the help files on how to do this yourself. It's not rocket science. Well, maybe it is since the model rocket guys use nitrous as a propellant. In fact I am currently rewriting that section and adding some pictures. Should be about a month before the update.

5: If it were me I would buy several .073 jets that pass whatever test the rules dictate. Then sit down and flow them to find the one that not only flows the most but is the smoothest flowing of the bunch. By that I mean it's mostly a visual thing if you don't log it. Some shoot to the left, some right, some straight down the middle and some swirl funny. Water at 10 lbs or more works best for this visual test.

6: I think it's good that the actual nitrous user/tuner understands how things work. The payoff can be both personally and financially satisfying when "it works as expected" and/or you come home with your stuff in one piece. Doing your own flowing helps you find the limits of your system and Makes my life easier. Once you get into it you will start looking at a lot of different things in your system to make it better or more efficient. It can be a fun learning experience but it does take considerable time. Good winter project the first time around.

7: If I were king and was limited to an .073 I might want to try a plate tube with a ID smaller than normal to keep the velocity up. What size? Don't know. Just thought about it from time to time. Just threw that out there to make you crazy and get you to thinking.

8: Current Perimeter plates have all been a disappointment to me. I haven't seen one yet other than the original NOS plate from the 90s (no longer made) that flows somewhat evenly around the thing. Run some water through one to see what I mean. It's a pretty substantial variation. Other than that the concept, function and end result is far superior to bar plates.

9: Flowing Mechanical Fuel injection. Now, this is not a DIY project and is a totally different animal than a steady state nitrous system. Flowing MFI is a must to save mucho track time. Every one of these supposedly identical systems is "like a box of chocolates" and have their own vastly different personalities due to pump efficiency, line lengths, nozzles, yada, yada. Just thought I would throw that in.

John, If this bordered on an advertisement just delete it.

[John_Heard]

Dave, you're welcome to advertise here anytime you want my friend. However, I don't think that was an ad... just plain good advice.

As we've discussed many times on the phone, flowing a system takes quite a bit of time to do but it's an important step so you actually have some measurements to work with vs "what it should be".

[mytmouz]

Very good info Mr. Koeler, now I have to spend some more money...

[Dave Koehler]

Very good info Mr. Koeler, now I have to spend some more money...

chuckle. My bad. Just trying to make your head hurt.

[silvanova]

The class I run has a rule of one entry point for nitrous and one entry point for fuel only, one solenoid each, on a limited nitrous pill of .078. When I mentioned that to Steve he said he would have to build a plate and that he really dosen't have single point entry plates and quoted a very high price just to do the plate nothing else. I bought the wilson system complete with noids and all for just 200.00 more than he wanted the custom plate. He made me feel like the price was high to drive my away from bothering him with this type of system......

So I went else where...... I sold my NX system and bought the Wilson system.........I think it will do just fine!!!!
Now I'm not saying anything bad about Steve other than it didn't work out..........

He jacked up his prices in the last couple years, I called him about flowing my bigshot and he said like 250 , I sat on my ass and life got in the way also. well abput 2 years later I pm him on Yb and its almost 500 now for the same plate. Also his answers on YB have turned into bullshit answers lately. Most the time now he is doing the shit He got bad at Monte and Tubecarz for , he says call me so we can talk about it, or I can take of you, we have something that may work. We can dicuss this futher. Thought the forum was to answer questions not sell work. lol.
I say buy the crosshair plate or the cold fusion plate, use your noids. Get a digi set and a digi scale and flow it your self.

X2 I had a edelbrock fogger and steve didnt want to give me any starting jet numbers. he finally gave me a 2 jet spread but wouldnt give me a timing number. Its a bbc with standard degree heads and he said there was too many variables. Lol needless to say we went to the track and ran horrible. So we talked to Monte Smith and he gave us jet and timing numbers. Told us that 2 jet spread was way rich and over timed. We go to the track and car came alive and ran faster than ever. So when it came time to flow my fogger Monte got my business. All steve wants to do on the bullet is sell his nitrous systems and when people like Monte, Mike thermos, mike nelson and others get on there helping out he runs them off.

[ERV JR]

The class I run has a rule of one entry point for nitrous and one entry point for fuel only, one solenoid each, on a limited nitrous pill of .078. When I mentioned that to Steve he said he would have to build a plate and that he really dosen't have single point entry plates and quoted a very high price just to do the plate nothing else. I bought the wilson system complete with noids and all for just 200.00 more than he wanted the custom plate. He made me feel like the price was high to drive my away from bothering him with this type of system......

So I went else where...... I sold my NX system and bought the Wilson system.........I think it will do just fine!!!!
Now I'm not saying anything bad about Steve other than it didn't work out..........

He jacked up his prices in the last couple years, I called him about flowing my bigshot and he said like 250 , I sat on my ass and life got in the way also. well abput 2 years later I pm him on Yb and its almost 500 now for the same plate. Also his answers on YB have turned into bullshit answers lately. Most the time now he is doing the shit He got bad at Monte and Tubecarz for , he says call me so we can talk about it, or I can take of you, we have something that may work. We can dicuss this futher. Thought the forum was to answer questions not sell work. lol.
I say buy the crosshair plate or the cold fusion plate, use your noids. Get a digi set and a digi scale and flow it your self.

X2 I had a edelbrock fogger and steve didnt want to give me any starting jet numbers. he finally gave me a 2 jet spread but wouldnt give me a timing number. Its a bbc with standard degree heads and he said there was too many variables. Lol needless to say we went to the track and ran horrible. So we talked to Monte Smith and he gave us jet and timing numbers. Told us that 2 jet spread was way rich and over timed. We go to the track and car came alive and ran faster than ever. So when it came time to flow my fogger Monte got my business. All steve wants to do on the bullet is sell his nitrous systems and when people like Monte, Mike thermos, mike nelson and others get on there helping out he runs them off.

Im friends with Mike Nelson, I really didnt want to bother him with doing my stuff since i knew he had alot on his plate at the time and thats why i called Steve the first time. After talking it over with Mike he said dont waste the money that i could borrow his shit and and he would walk me thru it. I later talked to other people who had gotten quotes from Steve for the same plate and they said 500, I thought no way so i pmed him and well it went up. All in all I think i would rather setup a cart at my shop with an intake and the timers mounted to it and a pump, set the scale on the bench and be able to do whatever I choose . The timing numbers are a whole different game but I can figure the N/F ratio and pattern. Hell maybe Mike may just give me his stuff lol since hes out the nitrous game now and working on Lonnies Procharged car