4 Link System - Step by Step

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Jeff 4100
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Re: 4 Link System - Step by Step

#181 Post by Jeff 4100 » Sun May 30, 2010 10:46 am

Mike,
Meanwhile, I'd like to have more suggestions for my case...
I wanna have more options for this new suspension, considering my difficulty to transfer the power to the track...to help my bad tires work better...

For now, I just have the Bill Theories...but I'm confuse because he says that we have the assimetic setup, however, he also says the 100% AS tangent theory...

...and, everyone said he's crazy!!I don't know...

I'd like to contribute for this discussion. I'm ready to test the Bill configuration to check the effective results...considering that I have a 11sec car, 400HP, 205/60R15 radial tires...not similar for your cars...
I already got 0,3sec on the 60 feet time with my new 4 link Project....with simetrical bars setup...
But I wanna more, if it is possible. I'm assemby a new suspension for a friend's car and I'd like to test new options to compare with my car...

What more specific informations about the car I have to get for we work together??Let's help this confused Brazilian Drag racer to reach the top of the class??? :thumb: Please!!!!!
The new friends, Mr. Supernova, Bracketracer...John too...i need your help!!! :D

My best regards for everyone!!!
Thanks!!!
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Mike Peters
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Re: 4 Link System - Step by Step

#182 Post by Mike Peters » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:05 am

Jeff 4100 wrote: ...and, everyone said he's crazy!!I don't know...
Mr. Shope is by no means crazy. If you're willing to try the asymmetrical 4 link set-up, please report your results back to us. Your power level and low torque output on limited traction tires might be the perfect combination to assess his approach. Do not add any pre-load into the bars.
"If winning was easy, losers would be doing it"

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Jeff 4100
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Re: 4 Link System - Step by Step

#183 Post by Jeff 4100 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:06 pm

Mike Peters wrote: Mr. Shope is by no means crazy. If you're willing to try the asymmetrical 4 link set-up, please report your results back to us. Your power level and low torque output on limited traction tires might be the perfect combination to assess his approach. Do not add any pre-load into the bars.
Great Mike!!!
I wanna bet on the Bill's Theory!! I think its possible!
What results do you wanna know??Does the 4 link configuration??

The race will be on the next June,19th. We have time to discuss it!!!

I'll run behind of it!!!

Thanks!!
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Jeff 4100
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Re: 4 Link System - Step by Step

#184 Post by Jeff 4100 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:35 pm

Mike,
Bob says "If you run too flat with the bottom bar, or one that travels uphill to the chassis...compromising hook".

In my case, the bottom bar is on 0 degree.

About the upper bar, it is with 12 degrees...

Suggestions?
Regards,
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BillyShope
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Re: 4 Link System - Step by Step

#185 Post by BillyShope » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:07 am

Jeff 4100 wrote:
Mike,
Bob says "If you run too flat with the bottom bar, or one that travels uphill to the chassis...compromising hook".

In my case, the bottom bar is on 0 degree.

About the upper bar, it is with 12 degrees...

Suggestions?
Regards,
Again, read Page 45:
http://www.racetec.cc/shope/tim.44.htm

The angle of the bottom bar, by itself, is meaningless. With the upper bar, however, the instant center can be located. Don't worry about asymmetry for now. Just use the spreadsheet on Page 13 to help you achieve 100% antisquat.

When your numbers are consistent, you can, if you like, consider working with the asymmetry settings introduced on Page 19.

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Mike Peters
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Re: 4 Link System - Step by Step

#186 Post by Mike Peters » Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:31 am

BillyShope wrote: The angle of the bottom bar, by itself, is meaningless.
This is where you are wrong Mr. Shope. The bottom bar angle is extremely crucial. As in Patrick Budd's article, the bottom bar controls the rear housing's desire to want to drive above or below the angle of the bottom bar. If this dynamic is not controlled by the angle of the bottom bar, it will act exactly as Patirck described plus, induce roll steer.

Different cars with different power levels want varying amounts of rake in the bottom four-link bar, too. If the bar is too ‘nose down' for the application, it will bury the quarters, driving the tubs toward the tires and wad the sidewall. If you run too flat a bottom bar, or one that travels uphill to the chassis, the anti-squat dialed in by the top bar may cause the bottom bar to separate the car from the axle centerline, compromising hook. Again, we split racecars into two groups, those with enough power to use torque to keep the tire applied without a ton of leverage, and those that do not. For those cars that do not have a bunch of power, some rake in the bottom bar is appropriate. In fact, many high eight to mid-ten second cars will tolerate a significant amount of pitch, resulting in an instant center that is at or beneath ground level. The raked bar sets up a lower IC, and since low=long, it makes up for the high anti-squat/low ‘bite' setting of their top bar. Higher-powered cars won't tolerate all that bite- so dialing a bunch of hook will result in a tire that wads up and either spins or shakes. They demand a flatter bar, yet one that won't go over center during anti-squat. This pushes the car forward, not appreciably up or down, and once again the available torque will work the sidewall sufficiently to keep the car hooked
Last edited by Mike Peters on Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4 Link System - Step by Step

#187 Post by Mike Peters » Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:39 am

Jeff 4100 wrote:
Mike,
Bob says "If you run too flat with the bottom bar, or one that travels uphill to the chassis...compromising hook".

In my case, the bottom bar is on 0 degree.

About the upper bar, it is with 12 degrees...

Suggestions?
Regards,
Yeah Jeff, rather than trying to plot all this stuff out on paper and plug measurements into calculators, my suggestion is to go out and run the car, analyze the run, and see what the car wants. If you want more anti-squat, make the adjustment and make another pass. The best teacher is the real world results you will discover. You will know your car the best. We can all set here at our keyboards in another country offering you advice but, your best teacher is the track. There's always more methods we've discussed in the past to give you results rather than relying on suspension geometry.
"If winning was easy, losers would be doing it"

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BillyShope
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Re: 4 Link System - Step by Step

#188 Post by BillyShope » Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:29 am

Mike Peters wrote:
This is where you are wrong Mr. Shope.
Mike, compare that which Mr. Budd is saying and that which I have on Page 45. Obviously, there's a difference.

I have used the most basic principles of mechanics to develop the conclusions. With a very little effort, anyone can use thumb tacks, string, and cardboard to verify each step. Unless such a verification fails, the only conclusion is that Mr. Budd is incorrect.
http://www.racetec.cc/shope/tim.44.htm

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Bruce69Camaro
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Re: 4 Link System - Step by Step

#189 Post by Bruce69Camaro » Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:06 pm

Jeff 4100,

Please check your PM.

Thanks

Bruce

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Jeff 4100
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Re: 4 Link System - Step by Step

#190 Post by Jeff 4100 » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:17 pm

Bruce69Camaro wrote:Jeff 4100,

Please check your PM.

Thanks

Bruce
Thanks Bruce!!!!!
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bracketracer
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Re: 4 Link System - Step by Step

#191 Post by bracketracer » Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:10 pm

BillyShope wrote:
Mike Peters wrote:
This is where you are wrong Mr. Shope.
Mike, compare that which Mr. Budd is saying and that which I have on Page 45. Obviously, there's a difference.

I have used the most basic principles of mechanics to develop the conclusions. With a very little effort, anyone can use thumb tacks, string, and cardboard to verify each step. Unless such a verification fails, the only conclusion is that Mr. Budd is incorrect.
http://www.racetec.cc/shope/tim.44.htm

I agree with Mike....The lower bars in my car needed to be 3" off the ground at my IC of 52 with a 3* bar angle down..That was the only to make the car hook and be constant...Moving the lower bars anywhere else would cause tire spin and be unstable...Also I have never seen the lower bars going up in the front....Never.....
Image

Tell us who's car you have worked on that the lower bars are meaningless as far as angle?????????

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Re: 4 Link System - Step by Step

#192 Post by Mike Peters » Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:39 am

BillyShope wrote: Unless such a verification fails, the only conclusion is that Mr. Budd is incorrect.
http://www.racetec.cc/shope/tim.44.htm
Patrick is absolutely correct. Just because different bar angles and bar spreads can land on the same I/C doesn't mean the car is going to act the same with those different angles. The desire of the rear end housing to rotate and therefore create pushing and pulling force vectors dictates it. The laws of physics cannot be denied. Different leverage points create different amounts of leverage.
bracketracer wrote: I agree with Mike....The lower bars in my car needed to be 3" off the ground at my IC of 52 with a 3* bar angle down..That was the only to make the car hook and be constant...Moving the lower bars anywhere else would cause tire spin and be unstable...Also I have never seen the lower bars going up in the front....Never.....

Tell us who's car you have worked on that the lower bars are meaningless as far as angle?????????
I too would like to know the race car or cars that can completely disregard bar angles and spreads. It would have to be a very low horsepower program not to notice the differences.

Correct me if I'm wrong Billy but, just to set the record straight, you are completely discounting bar angles and spreads as having any bearing on how the car acts? You are saying the only factor is the location of the I/C? From what I'm reading, this seems to be your philosophy and advice.
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Re: 4 Link System - Step by Step

#193 Post by BillyShope » Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:45 am

bracketracer wrote:
Tell us who's car you have worked on that the lower bars are meaningless as far as angle?????????
The Ramchargers' C/A. We were concerned only with the IC location relative to the 100% antisquat line. Note that I said the lower link angle, in itself, is meaningless. It becomes very meaningful, however, when it is used, with the upper link angle, to determine the location of the IC.

This should clarify matters:
http://www.racetec.cc/shope/tim.44.htm

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Mike Peters
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Re: 4 Link System - Step by Step

#194 Post by Mike Peters » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:43 am

BillyShope wrote:The Ramchargers' C/A. We were concerned only with the IC location relative to the 100% antisquat line. Note that I said the lower link angle, in itself, is meaningless. It becomes very meaningful, however, when it is used, with the upper link angle, to determine the location of the IC.

This should clarify matters:
http://www.racetec.cc/shope/tim.44.htm
What ET and how much horsepower was the Ramchargers C/A running and making? Lower bar angle matters for a great deal more than just determining the I/C. Tell all those guys who used to use the Southside Machine bars that were bought and mounted to shorten the I/C on the factory 4-link cars such as GM A-bodies and Fox body Mustangs. These bars replaced the factory geometry by lowering the mounting point of the lower bar on the rear end housing effectively shortening the I/C. Once these cars reached a certain power level, those bars created some very ill-handling cars. Moving the lower links back into their original position and then moving the I/C to the rear by relocating the mounting of the upper links on the hosuing to shorten the I/C in the same respect solved their "roll steer" problems on the big end. If not controlled by the angle of the lower bars, with enough power, the rear end housing wants to drive under or over the mounting point of the lower bar on the chassis depending on the lower bar angle. Just like pushing a pencil. Try to push it at an angle and see if it goes stright. Basic physics. So, if the lower bar angles created problems on factory suspensions, the problem is exacerbated on high horsepower fabbed suspension cars.
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Re: 4 Link System - Step by Step

#195 Post by BillyShope » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:04 am

Mike Peters wrote:The laws of physics cannot be denied.
Very true. But, they must be properly applied.

With an analysis of this sort, it is important to satisfy the physical constraints for the overall system before considering the internal forces and moments. To illustrate the absurdities that can cloud an analysis, we cannot consider the forces involved as the driver chews gum. Similarly, ring and pinion forces need not be considered.

So, we'll step back and consider first the entire car. Before the engine is started, the car is statically stable. It follows, therefore, that we need concern ourselves only with those dynamic forces which arise as a result of the launch. These forces and moments can act on the car only at those points and surfaces where the car comes into contact with the outside world. For the entire car, this would be the two tire patches. (It's actually four, of course, but we're going to be considering the car in side view, so I'll combine the two patches at each end.) At the rear tire patch, a forward force is acting to accelerate the car forward. The reaction to this acceleration is a horizontal inertial force, acting toward the rear at the center of gravity. These two forces, though equal in magnitude, are acting at different heights and, therefore, creating a moment (torque) on the car. This moment must be balanced (canceled), so vertical forces appear at the front and rear tire patches. This vertical force is, of course, the weight transfer.

So, if we know the car weight, acceleration, CG height, and wheelbase, we can calculate the weight transfer. Note that this is accomplished without knowledge of 4link spread, axle ratio, IC location, etc. These are all internal matters and do not affect an analysis of the entire car. (Yes, I realize the rise of the front of the car can affect CG height.)

This analysis of the entire car is called a "free body" analysis. In other words, the "body" is separated from its surrounding and forces and moments are substituted to replace the effects of the surroundings.

The next step is to consider a "body" which consists of the entire rear axle assembly. Again, a force and moment balance must exist. With a ladder bar car, the "surroundings" act at the tire patch and the front pivot. The rear axle assembly can then be considered as merely a giant link, with pivots at the tire patch and at the front pivot. A moment cannot be generated at either of these two points, so the line of action of any force acting at one of the two pivots must pass through the other pivot.

So, what force is acting at the tire patch? Well, it must be a combination of the horizontal force pushing the car forward and the weight transfer. But, is all the weight transfer going to be a part of the force which has a line of action that passes through the front pivot? No, not necessarily. If that line passing through the tire patch and the front pivot is coincident with the 100% antisquat line, the force will include ALL the weight transfer. If it is at any other angle, some of the weight transfer is being carried through the suspension springs.

In any event, that force carried through the springs is balanced by an upward vertical force at the tire patch. The remaining vertical force, when combined with the horizontal force, is balanced with the forces acting on a line through the pivots.

But, this has been a ladder bar car and not a 4link. The instant center of a 4link, however, acts in exactly the same manner as the pivot of a ladder bar car.

Next, consider a "body" which consists of the entire car LESS the rear axle assembly. The only contacts with the surroundings are the front tire patch and the front pivot of a ladder bar car OR the instant center of a 4link car. Do not ascribe intelligence to inanimate matter. The body under consideration has no "idea" of 4link spread, bottom link angle, or anything other than the force it "feels" acting at the instant center.

Remember that a force can be moved anywhere along its line of action. You can balance a pencil on your finger or you can tie a string around its balance point and suspend it. Same force and same result. Only the point of application has been changed.

Similarly, that force acting at the instant center can be moved anywhere along its line of action. Remember, now, that "line of action" is the same as a line of constant percent antisquat.

It follows, then, that the percent antisquat is the defining factor in the determination of a car's dynamic performance during launch.

Roll steer effects occur when, as a result of chassis roll, the entire rear axle assembly rotates in plan view, causing a steering effect akin to the push karts you might have built as a boy. Anecdotal consequences, such as have been supplied, emphasize the importance of the elimination of that chassis roll which occurs as a result of driveshaft torque. An ARB helps, but complete elimination of chassis roll can only be achieved with some form of suspension asymmetry which cancels the driveshaft torque effect.
http://www.racetec.cc/shope/tim.44.htm

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