Ladder Bar Mod

Suspension Tuning, Troubleshooting, Design and Discussion

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BillyShope
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Ladder Bar Mod

#1 Post by BillyShope » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:16 pm

Here's a mod for the ladder bar which allows convenient front hole changes and leaves the preload and pinion angle unaffected.
http://www.racetec.cc/shope
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supernova
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Re: Ladder Bar Mod

#2 Post by supernova » Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:25 pm

Billy, how would that leave the pinion angle unaffected?
And why would someone want to change what has worked for decades?

Enlighten use with your off the wall idea...........We are putting a ladder bar under my car right now.
Blackhoodmafia!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

1972 Nova SS
572 C.I. BBC

Best to date: 1/8
et: 5.28
mph: 134
new wt. 3340 lbs

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BillyShope
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Re: Ladder Bar Mod

#3 Post by BillyShope » Sun Dec 05, 2010 5:02 am

supernova wrote:Billy, how would that leave the pinion angle unaffected?
The ladder bars are simply solid extensions of the rear axle housing. As they're moved up and down, the pinion axis moves with them. This modification would allow the ladders to remain in "fixed" locations while different holes are selected at the front pivot. This would allow the pinion angle and preload to remain unchanged.
supernova wrote:And why would someone want to change what has worked for decades?
If design improvements were never made, we'd still be driving Model Ts. This modification simply eases the chore of changing pivot holes. It's still the same old ladder bar that's been around...as you point out...for decades.

As pictured, the center hole would be used. Rotating the Heim plate 180 degrees allows use of the lower hole. Or, the plate could be moved up to the other set of holes and the top hole would be available.
http://www.racetec.cc/shope

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supernova
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Re: Ladder Bar Mod

#4 Post by supernova » Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:22 pm

The front of the ladder bar with a plate that rotates 180* but holds the hiem in the same location when rotated right? Aren't you still applying leverage at the same point the hiem is located to the chassis? You said it doesn't change pre-load or pinion angle right? it looks like it also doesn't change the bar angle either. Isn't bar angle important to IC location? I though moving the hiem on the front of the ladder bar up or down is to change the IC. Looking at your drawing, the hiem is center of the bar no matter how you turn the plate therefore you have not changed the IC and thus looks to me like it does nothing to improve suspension tunning.

Look at it again.

Just my 2 cents
Blackhoodmafia!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

1972 Nova SS
572 C.I. BBC

Best to date: 1/8
et: 5.28
mph: 134
new wt. 3340 lbs

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Re: Ladder Bar Mod

#5 Post by BillyShope » Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:30 pm

supernova wrote:The front of the ladder bar with a plate that rotates 180* but holds the hiem in the same location when rotated right?
Wrong. It's the ladder bar that's kept in the same location.
supernova wrote:Aren't you still applying leverage at the same point the hiem is located to the chassis?
The idea is to keep the ladder in the same location while accessing any one of the 3 holes in the frame-mounted bracket.
supernova wrote:You said it doesn't change pre-load or pinion angle right? it looks like it also doesn't change the bar angle either.
That's right.
supernova wrote:Isn't bar angle important to IC location?
No. Bar angle is only indirectly associated with IC location. The bar could be in the shape of a pretzel. It is, after all, only a solid extension of the rear axle housing. It's NOT a link (as in a 3link or 4link), where rotation is possible at either or both ends. It is, again, a solid extension of the rear axle housing. All that's important is the location of the Heim.
supernova wrote:I though moving the hiem on the front of the ladder bar up or down is to change the IC.
Correct. But, with the pictured setup, the bar location will remain unchanged while the Heim is moved to any one of the 3 locations on the frame-mounted bracket. So, the IC location is changed without disturbing the ladder position, thus preserving pinion angle and preload.
supernova wrote:Looking at your drawing, the hiem is center of the bar no matter how you turn the plate therefore you have not changed the IC and thus looks to me like it does nothing to improve suspension tunning.
Look at the picture more closely. Rotation moves the Heim to the lower hole. Moving the plate up allows use of the upper hole.
http://www.racetec.cc/shope

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Re: Ladder Bar Mod

#6 Post by chpcamaro » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:05 am

if i understand right this is how it should work
ladder bar angle.png
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Re: Ladder Bar Mod

#7 Post by BillyShope » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:08 am

chpcamaro wrote:if i understand right this is how it should work
ladder bar angle.png
Yes, except the red line passes through the tire patch and the front pivot. This is the line of action of the force acting at the rear tire patch.
http://www.racetec.cc/shope

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Re: Ladder Bar Mod

#8 Post by BillyShope » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:19 am

A poster on the Yellow Bullet forum has offered that which I consider to be a better design. He pointed out that, rather than moving and rotating plates, why not simply have 3 Heims, arranged like tines on a fork, and put a bolt through the hole you want?

Love it!
http://www.racetec.cc/shope

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supernova
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Re: Ladder Bar Mod

#9 Post by supernova » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:42 am

You look at your drawing.
The way your drawing is drawn its misleading. Put it together with the holes that line up ON YOUR DRAWING now rotate it 180 it looks like the rod end DOES NOT MOVE.
Make better drawings OR explain your self better. OH OH, this is about you getting to explain yourself (your idea).

Ok, I'll look at it diferently than it's drawn. Now you have a 2 hole ajustment instead of 5 holes. What happens if you need more or less than what it gets. What if you need a 2 1/2 hole worth of ajustment then what? Start moving the bar, change the ride hight, oh no that would cause you to have to re-ajust the pinion and or preload any way. You could only rotate one time and hold the bar in the same location. What about the preload, have you ever try to remove a bolt out of preloaded rod end? Your gonna have to unload it to get the bolt out. I have solid rod ends in my set up, it going to be a little hard even doing it with jacks and jackstands.

If it isn't broke don't fix it........I'll stick with the tryed and true been used for decades system.
Blackhoodmafia!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

1972 Nova SS
572 C.I. BBC

Best to date: 1/8
et: 5.28
mph: 134
new wt. 3340 lbs

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supernova
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Re: Ladder Bar Mod

#10 Post by supernova » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:43 am

BillyShope wrote:A poster on the Yellow Bullet forum has offered that which I consider to be a better design. He pointed out that, rather than moving and rotating plates, why not simply have 3 Heims, arranged like tines on a fork, and put a bolt through the hole you want?

Love it!
http://www.racetec.cc/shope


That would make more sence...................
Blackhoodmafia!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

1972 Nova SS
572 C.I. BBC

Best to date: 1/8
et: 5.28
mph: 134
new wt. 3340 lbs

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supernova
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Re: Ladder Bar Mod

#11 Post by supernova » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:55 am

Rob, I was looking at his drawing and taking it at face value. Thats what us aircraft people do with drawings........

Thanks for clearing his drawing up.
Blackhoodmafia!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

1972 Nova SS
572 C.I. BBC

Best to date: 1/8
et: 5.28
mph: 134
new wt. 3340 lbs

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Re: Ladder Bar Mod

#12 Post by John_Heard » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:17 am

Interesting concept Billy... Not sure about the details, but good idea

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supernova
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Re: Ladder Bar Mod

#13 Post by supernova » Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:14 am

After frequenting lots of Billy's post's over the years, I've noticed that he has a hard time spelling out what he is actually trying to say. He talks in riddles most of the time and makes it hard to fallow. His drawing is very incomplete at best and doesn't convay what he is actually trying to show.

I've been to Dave Morgan classes, I have his book and CD also. Dave doesn't talk in riddles and is very understandable. There is a big differance between how the 2 talk about the subject. Even some have said Billy talks above most peoples head. Some times I think Billy should dumb it down for some of us common folk.
Blackhoodmafia!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

1972 Nova SS
572 C.I. BBC

Best to date: 1/8
et: 5.28
mph: 134
new wt. 3340 lbs

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BillyShope
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Re: Ladder Bar Mod

#14 Post by BillyShope » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:24 am

supernova wrote:What about the preload, have you ever try to remove a bolt out of preloaded rod end? Your gonna have to unload it to get the bolt out. I have solid rod ends in my set up, it going to be a little hard even doing it with jacks and jackstands.
Don't think it would be all that difficult. The following would be the procedure with the 3 Heim design: Place jackstands forward of the frame brackets with enough load to stabilize the car. If the car has positive preload, place a floor jack under the right side ladder and ease up until the bolt can be removed. Finish align the desired hole with a tapered drift and install the bolt. Place the floor jack forward of the bracket on the left side.
supernova wrote:Ok, I'll look at it diferently than it's drawn. Now you have a 2 hole ajustment instead of 5 holes. What happens if you need more or less than what it gets. What if you need a 2 1/2 hole worth of ajustment then what?

Neither design is intended to improve upon the adjustability presently available. I don't know what you mean by 2 and 5 hole adjustments. Normally, there are 3 holes in the front bracket. The adjustment comes down to a choice of one of these 3 holes.
supernova wrote:Put it together with the holes that line up ON YOUR DRAWING now rotate it 180 it looks like the rod end DOES NOT MOVE.
I suppose it's silly of me to explain a CAD model for an inferior design, but...as shown...the Heim plate uses the bottom 2 holes and the third row of 2 holes from the bottom. Since the Heim is closer to that upper row than the bottom row, rotation does move the Heim downward. Although scale is unimportant, it was actually modeled with a half inch Heim and 1 1/2 inches of Heim movement with either rotation or use of the other set of holes.
http://www.racetec.cc/shope

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Re: Ladder Bar Mod

#15 Post by slightly tweeked » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:31 am

BillyShope wrote:
supernova wrote:What about the preload, have you ever try to remove a bolt out of preloaded rod end? Your gonna have to unload it to get the bolt out. I have solid rod ends in my set up, it going to be a little hard even doing it with jacks and jackstands.
Don't think it would be all that difficult. The following would be the procedure with the 3 Heim design: Place jackstands forward of the frame brackets with enough load to stabilize the car. If the car has positive preload, place a floor jack under the right side ladder and ease up until the bolt can be removed. Finish align the desired hole with a tapered drift and install the bolt. Place the floor jack forward of the bracket on the left side.
supernova wrote:Ok, I'll look at it diferently than it's drawn. Now you have a 2 hole ajustment instead of 5 holes. What happens if you need more or less than what it gets. What if you need a 2 1/2 hole worth of ajustment then what?

Neither design is intended to improve upon the adjustability presently available. I don't know what you mean by 2 and 5 hole adjustments. Normally, there are 3 holes in the front bracket. The adjustment comes down to a choice of one of these 3 holes.
supernova wrote:Put it together with the holes that line up ON YOUR DRAWING now rotate it 180 it looks like the rod end DOES NOT MOVE.
I suppose it's silly of me to explain a CAD model for an inferior design, but...as shown...the Heim plate uses the bottom 2 holes and the third row of 2 holes from the bottom. Since the Heim is closer to that upper row than the bottom row, rotation does move the Heim downward. Although scale is unimportant, it was actually modeled with a half inch Heim and 1 1/2 inches of Heim movement with either rotation or use of the other set of holes.
http://www.racetec.cc/shope
????????????????????? :?
72 Nova
548 cu in,900hp
Turbo 400
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Ford 9in,457 gears
3640 lbs,all steel car.except hood.
Runs low 9s in 1/4.High 5s in 1/8.

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