Thinking of changing to an 18* set up and a solid roller.

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DRAG GTA
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Thinking of changing to an 18* set up and a solid roller.

#1 Post by DRAG GTA » Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:13 pm

Problem is that I don't have a lot of cubes to do it with. I'm running a 355 hydro roller right now and it seems to be doing alright, but I want to know if it would be worth it to change out the valve train, heads, and convert a single plane (to fuel inj.) I'd hate to throw all that money and effort into a motor and not be satisfied just b/c my heads and cam are too big.

My main question, assuming I'm buying off the shelf parts (minus the cam)and using pump gas, how much potential does this motor have.

Sorry for such an open ended question, I have all other info about my current set up if ya'll need it.

Oh, and nice site. :wink:

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#2 Post by John_Heard » Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:49 am

Welcome DragGTA to the site...

Better air flow than your stock heads should make a world of difference but you can go too big for the RPM ranges you're trying to work in and make the car a dog. From what I've read it sounds like this is a pretty stock combination now, I think maybe the 18* stuff might be a bit overkill for your current combination. Something like the Dart Iron Eagle makes a real nice head and you can reduce the combustion chamber size to increase your compression which will wake it up a lot. Is this a drive to work everyday car or a weekend warrior that sees a little bit of street time? Makes a big difference in how wild you should go on some of these things.

DRAG GTA
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#3 Post by DRAG GTA » Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:15 pm

Sorry, I guess I should've been more specific. This car is a drag car that is driven to and from the track. And basically, no other driving. The current set up is as follows.

The short:
355 4 bolt studded mains forged rotating assm.
comp cams "306" hydro roller
Protopline 200cc al. heads 64cc chambers
Holley stealth ram intake.
T-56
9" w/ 4.11
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The long:
(I'm just gunna copy and paste, you can skim through this if ya want)
As of 7/1/05

Bottom End
355 4-bolt ARP studded mains, roller block
Bored out w/ tq plate
Polished forged crank from ZZ4 crate motor
5.7 forged Eagle H-beam rods
JE nitrous pistons forged aluminum
Block decked and pistons left 0.010 in the hole
Total seal rings 0.032 1st ring, 0.018 2nd ring
Felpro 1003 head gasket (4.166 bore and 0.041 comp. thickness)
Static Compression is 10.18:1
Dynamic compression is 7.58:1

Heads
Aluminum Protopline 200cc intake runner and 64cc chamber
2.02/1.60 valves 0.100 longer than stock
Valve springs comp cams 26987 121/388# @ 1.800 install height
1.150 coil bind 344# / in.
7/16 screw in studs, guide plates
ARP head bolts
From Protopline’s website @ 28” of water
Intake exhaust
.200 – 146.41 101
.300 – 203.72 156.94
.400 – 249.84 176.85
.500 – 260.51 186.34
.600 – 268.51 190.16
.700 – 276.41 194.87

Valve train
CC Pro magnum hardened pushrods
1.6 ratio CC Pro magnum rockers
New roller lifters (hydraulic)
CCA-07-306-8 Grind LT1 290HR-12
Adv. 290/307 and 230/244 @ 0.050
.544/.576 w/ 1.6 rockers
112 LSA
http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Searc ... r=07-306-8

Intake
Holley Stealth ram
BBK 58mm TB
Heads and intake port matched.


Fuel
30# Accel injectors
Adjustable fuel pressure regulator
Walbro 255 intake pump

Ignition
MSD digital 6+
MSD wires
Autolite AR3932 plugs.
Stock HEI distributor

ECM
Holley Commander 950 with custom WB dyno tune.

Exhaust
Hooker 1-3/4” long tube headers
Dual 3” exhaust w/ summit smooth tube mufflers (SUM-630630) and dumps.

Drive train
Tremec T-56
Pro-5.0 shifter
3” steel DS w/ 1350 joints and forged yoke
Spec Stage 5 clutch
Ford 9” w/ 4.11’s
31 spline axels
Spool
Nodular iron case
Daytona pinion support

Nitrous
NX direct port 2 solenoid system adjustable from 200-600hp.
Piranha nozzles
1 gal. fuel cell
Holley blue pump w/ adj. regulator
bottle heater
purge
WOT switch
window switch
Schnitz progressive controller.

Suspension
Spohn LCA’s
Jegster adj. TQ arm
90/10s and moroso trick front springs
No sway bars
Stock rear springs and shocks
Air bag in right rear

Cooling
Proform elec. water pump.
Stock radiator
160* stat.
Dual elec. fans

Wheels and tires
Pro star 15x8 and 15x3.5

Steering
Bump steer end links
Vega manual steering box
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry for the long post but that should answer any other questions.
The car has ran a best of 11.69 @ 116.87 w/ a 1.57 60'. 1/8mile was in the 7.4x range at 91.xx mph. Those times were on motor. Hoping to see some 10.3x or so on the 300 pills. The thing I like about this set up is that I can drive it to the track and back. It's not a comfortable ride, but I don't need to buy and insure a truck and trailer.

My question is more about power potential of a smaller displacement motor w/ a BIG top end on it. Currently my pistons weigh in the 550g range and my rods are standard 5.7" eagle H beam. The crank ain't exactly a featherweight either. What I'm trying to say is, I don't want to turn 9000rpms if I don't have to. I know a lot will depend on the cam and head selection, and that's why I was posting here.

I know this isn't necessarily an easy question to answer, but I appreciate all replies.

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#4 Post by John_Heard » Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:56 pm

That's a lot better description LOL

One thing jumped out at me and that was the head gasket thickness, you're not getting much quench with the piston down .010 and a .041 gasket. I'd probably tighten that up some. This does sound like something you might want to go ahead and step up to a better head and a full roller. I would also consider how much more compression using smaller chambers and bring the compression up. A cam with more duration will let you sneak by driving around town with pump gas. But at the track I'd put some better fuel in it. In addition your spraying it which tends to like more flow than a N/A combo.

I'm going to shut up now because I'm not all that up to date on the 18* heads on the small blocks - hopefully Craig Watson will chime in her with some recommendations on those heads. He runs the 18* Brodix on his motor and can probably give you some good ideas.

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#5 Post by Craig W. » Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:03 pm

From what I've experienced with my Brodix 18x heads, they like to turn quite a bit of rpm, like a good bit more cam than you have and will want at least 13:1 compression.

On my last 383, I ran 12:1 compression, a 263/273@.050" solid roller cam and it liked to be shifted at 7500. It seemed to need more compression, but I never did increase it. It went 10.40@129 on the motor.

On a 355, I think you'll end up spinning it at least that tight, which isn't going to happen with a hydraulic roller. The compression needs to come up too in order to help it make more torque.

You've got pretty decent heads, but the cam is mild and so is the compression. I think it could go a lot quicker with the heads you have.
Craig Watson
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DRAG GTA
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Location: Earth

#6 Post by DRAG GTA » Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:22 pm

I think it could go a lot quicker with the heads you have.
Hell, that's even better. Any suggestions? I'm not to particular about the cam. But the intake and Fuel Injection I did spend a chunk on, so I'd like to keep that if there is a cheaper alternative. As far as a cam, I'm not against changing to a solid roller if there is a good amount of power to be gained over the 230\244.

Any cam suggestiong that would work well w/ a lot of spray?

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#7 Post by Craig W. » Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:50 pm

Do you know what the heads flow through the intake?

A solid roller with a lot more lift will take better advantage of your heads flow curve. Keep the split duration to help the exhaust side and keep a wide LSA for use with the nitrous. I'd looking at something like 254/264@.050" duration.

Not sure what your EFI setup will support, so you'll probably want to consult Holley, as well as some of the well known cam people.

If this is a race only engine, get that compression up as much as you can. 13:1 can be run with reasonably priced 108-110 octane without problems and then you can use some better stuff when you're going to use the nitrous.
Craig Watson
2QuickNovas Racing
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Rapp Racing
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DRAG GTA
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Location: Earth

#8 Post by DRAG GTA » Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:12 am

Compression is where the problem lies. I can't buy race gas locally, exxon doesn't sell it, and the closest 1/4 mile strip is 1.5 hours away. W/ lower compression I don't think that 254/264 will do me any good, unless there's a butt load of overlap.

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#9 Post by JohnDougherty » Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:26 am

I would run a single pattern cam. Maybe a 244/244 @ .050" on a 112 lobe sep. With the intake installed, the intake flow numbers are going to drop and you will end up with closer to 75% exhaust to intake flow numbers.

Some good info here: http://www.stealthram.com/

DRAG GTA
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Location: Earth

#10 Post by DRAG GTA » Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:13 pm

Craig W. wrote:Do you know what the heads flow through the intake?
No I don't. Sorry.
I would run a single pattern cam. Maybe a 244/244 @ .050" on a 112 lobe sep
You'd run a single pattern w/ 300+ shot of juice? I'm a little baffled by that one.
Last edited by DRAG GTA on Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#11 Post by JohnDougherty » Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:39 pm

Quote:
I would run a single pattern cam. Maybe a 244/244 @ .050" on a 112 lobe sep

You'd run a single pattern w/ 300+ shot of juice? I'm a little baffled by that one.
I should clarify my original post, I meant in your current combination I would choose a single pattern cam. IMO the intake manifold and intake cam duration is the restriction in the system. I havent seen a dyno sheet making power over 7000 rpms with the stealth intake. So to optimize the power under 6500 or so RPMs I would keep the duration low. I also like shorter exhaust durations on lower compression engines.
If you run every pass on the bottle a dual pattern cam is usually better.

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