Pick the "Collective Brain" of the site :)

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sverbus
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Pick the "Collective Brain" of the site :)

#1 Post by sverbus » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:21 pm

Hey ya'll...once again I'm making changes, trying to better the "combination" and over the course of the last 3yr's with my 434, I've learned alot, to say the least. I learned that you can't supply a 230cc CNC'd set of Dart heads with a 830 Race Demon and a Holley blue pump! :0 I learned that you can't upgrade to a Biggs 950 Stage 5 HP and MagnaFuel 300 Quickstar and still use your same -6an line going forward to an old skool holley regular and expect to make adequate power.

I learned that you can't use a stock drive shaft with brute force Uni's in it and expect it to live with that kind of grunt in front of it, NOR expect a run of the mill Ford Traction Lock to stand up in the 9inch :)

So, I've also started to get VERY interested in really learning what makes a cam tick. Not, literally, but figuratively. So, I thought I'd ask what everyone here thinks and see if I'm moving in the right direction. I currently have 15:1, and it's a .040 over Dart little m block. I'm going to drop teh compression this year to around 13.5:1 and bore the block to .060 in order to true it up and replace pistons. The cam currently is:

Comp Cams, .690/.690 with a .268/.272 duration, ground at 109 - installed at 108. It's a solid roller using Crane horizontal bar pro lifters. I feel that with the big heads, big compression that I don't have enough duration in order to fill the cylinders and a bit to much lift. This year we are also upgrading to a set of 1 7/8 to a 3.5" collector headers.

Do you all think that a cam around these spec's would be adequate or wrong for my combo? I run a drag radial, 275, I have 4.30gears in the rear and a 'glide. A Coan 9.25" converter setup tight around 4200-4500.

The cam I'm thinking might really open up this motor is as follows:
.645/.660 lift, .304/310 duration and a 104 centerline solid roller. The added duration will utitlize the heads better and the little less lift will maintain better compression and be easier on parts since I drive it on teh street.

OH and ALL OF THIS is with a set of Harland Sharp 1.6 rockers.

Sorry so long guys...I tend to be long winded...if any of you meet me in person, you can smack me for it! :)

Thanks, and PLEASE leave opinions and advice, thanks in advance!

Scott
'70 Nova
434 small block
Best so far of 10.51 @ 131mph with a best so far 60' /1.46

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supernova
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Re: Pick the "Collective Brain" of the site :)

#2 Post by supernova » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:08 am

Hey Scott,
Yah, some times learning the hard way is a pain in the butt...... A lot of the things that are on my car or prolly over kill but I don't have to worry about breaking them.

It looks like your going in the right direction. Do you have the flow # on the heads? If so you can call Bullet Cams or call Cam Motion cams and they can give you a recommendation that might be a better choice of cam. The rest of your combo looks like it will work fine..
Blackhoodmafia!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

1972 Nova SS
572 C.I. BBC

Best to date: 1/8
et: 5.28
mph: 134
new wt. 3340 lbs

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sverbus
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Re: Pick the "Collective Brain" of the site :)

#3 Post by sverbus » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:37 am

I wish that I had flow numbers, but the guy that worked the heads and evened them out and opened them up is old school and doesn't own a flow bench but I saw the heads prior to him getting them, and when he was done they just looked so much more "clean"...does that make sense?

Are there places that I can send the heads to and they will flow them for me even if I don't buy them from them or have them do any port work? But it would be nice to have some flow numbers!

Even though I don't have flow numbers, I may call Com Motion anyhow and see what they say.
'70 Nova
434 small block
Best so far of 10.51 @ 131mph with a best so far 60' /1.46

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supernova
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Re: Pick the "Collective Brain" of the site :)

#4 Post by supernova » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:03 am

Is there any performance engine builders in your area. Most of these types of shops have flow Benches and will flow them for a small fee say $100.00. That's a small price to pay to have the information you really need to make a good choice for a cam to fit your motor.
The guy's at the cam shop will sell you a cam for your motor with out the #s but flowing them is money well spent.
Blackhoodmafia!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

1972 Nova SS
572 C.I. BBC

Best to date: 1/8
et: 5.28
mph: 134
new wt. 3340 lbs

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sverbus
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Re: Pick the "Collective Brain" of the site :)

#5 Post by sverbus » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:09 am

Yeah, there are a few here in Columbus...I'll have to make some calls.
'70 Nova
434 small block
Best so far of 10.51 @ 131mph with a best so far 60' /1.46

waterdog
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Re: Pick the "Collective Brain" of the site :)

#6 Post by waterdog » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:56 pm

I'm not gonna recommend a cam(cause I'm no expert), but you could definatly gain some power with the right one. Our combos and cars are kinda simular, the first real passes with my new 434 were low 10.30s @ 132. The more correct info you can give cam people the better and be honest. Happy hunting , Walt
1970 Nova SS 3580lb, Shafiroff 434 na, 9.94@135.8

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sverbus
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Re: Pick the "Collective Brain" of the site :)

#7 Post by sverbus » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:11 pm

Yeah for sure I was disappointed with how fast the car has went so far. BUT, in the car and motor's defense, I don't have the combo right yet because of learning curve, and budget :) ALWAYS THE BUDGET! :) haah

I have WAY to small of a header on the car right now....but this year the 1 /78 to the 3.5" collector is going to be nice. But before i can put them on, I have to migrate to rack & pinion in order to get room up there.

So, that's all happening this year. :bling:
'70 Nova
434 small block
Best so far of 10.51 @ 131mph with a best so far 60' /1.46

sc racing
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Re: Pick the "Collective Brain" of the site :)

#8 Post by sc racing » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:07 am

Sounds like your headed in the right direction,as Supernova said I wouldnt buy anything until you get your heads checked I would send them to Chad Spieres along with the intake and let him tell you how good or bad they are. IMO there is no way you can port a head correctly without a flowbench nor can you port a heads without knowing what the application is. After your heads and intake are done you can have a cam made ( no off the shelf cam you already bought one of those and look at the results).I would wait on the headers also you might need 2" ??. Your combo has the potential to be 700+ with the right stuff. I did the same as you with my 421" I got the wrong head,intake,cam combo and it made 561hp sold it to a freind he changed the heads,cam,intake and carb and it makes over 700 now.

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Re: Pick the "Collective Brain" of the site :)

#9 Post by K-Star Automotive » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:28 am

Before I took the car apart I would find a "GOOD" local chassis dyno to make a few passes on and gather some data about what the rear tires are seeing. IMO and I mean nothing bad by this at all, so please don't take it that way, but your performance is way off of what it should be for your combo. I don't think the header swap is going to make a real big change, at least not get it to where it should be running.

Once you prove that there is not excessive drive train slip or converter issues then you can go attack the engine.

If you can't find anyone to do the heads I can do them for you. I can give you CFM, Air speed, CSA, ETC You really need this data to make a wise cam shaft choice.

Just as a point of reference I have a customer with a SBF. 434 ci in a 3100lb car that runs 9.7's @140 on motor. This is by no stretch an all-out engine. I would think that your car should go an easy 10.0 with out breaking a sweat. Unless it's real heavy for some reason. In reality your car should be in the mid 9's with that combo.


BTW, the Dart CNC's heads are nice for an out of the box head. Again not trying to hurl any insults, but with out a flow bench and the necessary tools the guy that ground on your heads might have made them worse .
Keith

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sverbus
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Re: Pick the "Collective Brain" of the site :)

#10 Post by sverbus » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:43 pm

Unfortunately I can't stand the guys here in town that have the chassis dyno's and so I wasn't able to get any of those types of numbers. I do agree it would have been nice though.

Keith,
I know that the car should be way faster, it's what I hear from everyone that asks whats in the motor and what the car has all done to it. And it's very disheartening to say the least! I don't take it as an insult, I'm used to it! :) I will say though, that the art of being able to open up and clean up a set of heads without all these added tools of flow benches and such is a lost art. The fella that work these heads is old skool and is a very well respected guy here in Columbus.

I'd love to send my heads and intake to you, but I can guarantee that it is WAY out of my price range and budget to have that all done. I already know I need to buy new pistons and I already know the cam is going to need replaced (because it's just not the right one)

One thing that is definitely not allowing the car to run where it should be is the fact that I can't launch it any harder than around 1800rpm. If I go up above that, the old drum brakes can't hold it and it wants to push through the beams, that's why I think the converter is good and tight.

And I apologize for the bad info, my heads are not the CNC ones..they were the run of the mill 230cc 23* Pro-1's from Dart. And a Dart Single plane intake. BOTH have been matched to the FelPro 1206 gasket.

And I made some calls around town and there are NO flow benches here in Columbus proper. :( so back to square one. /sigh

Scott
'70 Nova
434 small block
Best so far of 10.51 @ 131mph with a best so far 60' /1.46

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supernova
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Re: Pick the "Collective Brain" of the site :)

#11 Post by supernova » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:40 pm

Hey Scott, your heads are probibly port matched and cleaned up. You don't need a flow bench for that. Go out on the web and do a search for the flow for your heads out of the box and I would bet that's not far from the actual #'s your heads flow so that you have something to give the cam guy's. The 230 cc head you have is one of the best heads out of the box. It should be ok.
Blackhoodmafia!!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

1972 Nova SS
572 C.I. BBC

Best to date: 1/8
et: 5.28
mph: 134
new wt. 3340 lbs

K-Star Automotive
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Re: Pick the "Collective Brain" of the site :)

#12 Post by K-Star Automotive » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:46 pm

Well the non-cnc'd heads make a difference. That changes the picture some what.
But there is still an issue IMO.

If you just want the data from your heads and no work done to them I'll do it for free. You just pay for the ride both ways.

But I would really look into finding a chassis dyno even if you need to drive a spell. The data is priceless.

If there is a drive train issue and you spend all this money on the car and it still does not pick up your going to be upset with your self.

Keith

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sverbus
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Re: Pick the "Collective Brain" of the site :)

#13 Post by sverbus » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:24 pm

Keith,

Awesome bro, and I may take you up on that and I'd gladly pay the for the ride back and forth. I currently don't have the car together for a dyno run, so we'll have to see what it makes after I get it back together.

I'm also thinking I may get the engine dyno'd as well, as I have made a good contact with a shop that has a engine dyno and I'm possibly going to do a website for them, and so we may barter for work. :) I love bartering.

I don't really know where the drive train lose would be. It's got a pro-built 'glide in it, (but stock case) a 3" moly driveshaft and a Mark Williams Ford 9" with steel full spool and 4:30 gears in an aluminum center section and 33 spline MW axles. The converter is a 9.25" CK Performance converter. I am thinking of sending the converter to Neal to get it looked at and make sure that it's ok.

I really think it's the launch rpm, and the fact that it's not pulling very hard at big end. I'll dig up my time slips from the track and see what the increments are.

I'm also getting ALOT of blow by in the motor as well. On the vacuum pump port on the valve cover if I take the hose off and put my hand by the port I can clearly feel the motor "puffing" on my hand while it idles. That's why I think I need pistons. Plus with 15:1 comp, the pistons having VERY little skirt to begin with, and were used when I bought them, I'm thinking that they are in need of a replacement.

Ok, enough long winded explanations from me! :)
'70 Nova
434 small block
Best so far of 10.51 @ 131mph with a best so far 60' /1.46

sc racing
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Re: Pick the "Collective Brain" of the site :)

#14 Post by sc racing » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:11 pm

Its not your launch rpm that is a problem the car just doesnt show as much hp as it should. We can all guess at what the problem is (or what the problems are) but as said in some of the posts by others you need some data on your combo.Can you dyno it as it is now? or will you dyno it when its done. Think about what you wrote "Id love to send my heads and intake to you, but I can guarantee its WAY out of my price range and budget to have that all done".The question is can you afford NOT to do this. You already did it once buy getting the parts you got. Did you even price this kind of work? Im not trying to be a dick ( sorry if Im coming across that way) but if you asked these questions before and did a lot of research like your doing now your engine would be a lot better. Look into getting the heads done the right way it might not be as expensive as you think, thats where ALL the power is.Dont waste your $$$$ again.

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Re: Pick the "Collective Brain" of the site :)

#15 Post by 427belair » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:58 pm

Something to think about. I am far from an expert, but my nova started out by running times similar to yours. Without doing anything to the engine I managed to reduce my ets from low 10.6s to 9.90's with suspension work and seat time. Learing launch rpm, shift points ect. It seems like every race it went a couple .0x faster.

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