Jesel and T&D Shaft Rocker Solutions

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wikd69
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Jesel and T&D Shaft Rocker Solutions

#1 Post by wikd69 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:08 am

I've let things sit for awhile while I focused on work and family stuff, etc. Now I'm getting back into the swing of shop work. Not that much left to do at this point. So I went back out to the shop last week to finish up the top end stuff. I need to setup rocker geometry and check valve to piston clearance, along with a few other things, and then I'm on my way to the dyno. Getting closer...

I've been using a set of Jesel Sportsman shaft rockers and have been pretty happy with them. Before I adopted the Jesels I'd been doing the whole roller rocker / stud girdle thing to handle big springs and high RPM and all of you guys with that experience know how much fun stud girdles are, right ? After I installed the Jesels, I just loved the freedom the shaft rocker setup provided.

So last week while checking the valve train geometry I determined my rocker pedestals and shaft pivots were a bit low on these new heads so I decided I'd look at adding some shims under them. Jesel documentation listed a shim kit for use with Darts and BBC's so I went in search of the shim kit. With no success. Nobody online had them available. Weird.

So, I called the Jesel Tech guys to ask about the shim kit and was provided some unwelcome news.

Jesel recommends against shimming these Sportsman Shaft Rocker pedestals. They told me it screws up the rocker geometry and interferes with the lock/alignment plate they use for the pedestals. Also, in discussing my build, it turns out they also recommend against using these Sportsman rockers with spring rates in excess of 250 or 300 lbs of seat pressure (mine are 330 lbs).

They did offer to sell me taller (or shorter) pedestals to adjust my rocker heights as required, at $30 apiece. $500 is a bit steep just to add .150 to the rocker pivot height. And what about when I make changes down the road ?

And then there's the spring rate issue.

Geez louise.

In addition, I'd seen stuff out on Yellow Bullet where folks pulled threads on individual intake rocker studs running these kinds of rocker stands. The intake rocker stud runs into the intake runners and have a limited amount of thread depth available. This is not a bit issue for folks running street springs and lower rpms, but big springs and higher rpm really takes a toll on these shallow intake stud holes. Using a stud girdle with conventional rockers helps guard against problems with stud depth but they're really a pain in the butt to use. Making a move from the girdle to the shaft rocker setup was awesome, but then you hear about folks shredding rocker stud threads.

So all of this has been a concern with the individual Jesel rocker stands, but there's not been a lot I could do about the risk. However, now that using the Jesel gear is in question, I can go back out and look at other options.

I'm now taking a look at the T&D setup (PartNo TD3102-70-70). The solution uses a single intake rocker plate which bolts down across the back of the head, with shims under as needed to adjust heights ( Yay ! ), The individual intake rocker assemblies then bolt to the plate. Individual exhaust pedestals bolt in place with the deeper exhaust stud placement, but also bolt to the intake rocker plate for alignment. All in all, it seems to provide everything I need. Freedom from girdles, ability to adjust rocker heights, safety with high spring rates and a low maintenance solution. It'll be another hit on the old bank account, but it's something I need to have, so mama will just have to yell at me some more :).

Have any of you guys used the T&D TD3102 setup I'm looking at ? Any good or bad things you can share ? Any comments are welcome :)
1969 ProStreet Camaro RS Best 9.75@139 1.46 60'
Blown 427 BBC, TH400 w/Brake, Back-Half Ladderbar
Narrowed 12-Bolt, 4.10 Gears, Spool, Moser 33 Spline

http://www.marsh-racing.com/harrys_camaro-1.htm

bracketchev1221
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Re: Jesel and T&D Shaft Rocker Solutions

#2 Post by bracketchev1221 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:57 am

I would replace the stands and go with that. Did you use the same brand of heads from the old motor to this one? I was able to swap my rockers direct from one set of Dart heads to another set of Dart heads. As far as spring pressure, I am over 300 on the seat and the last cam was .788/.762. The new cam is .814/.798. But I'm not really sure what impact seat pressure has to do with the rockers. I would be concerned with OPEN pressure.

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ytnova
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Re: Jesel and T&D Shaft Rocker Solutions

#3 Post by ytnova » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:55 pm

John, I cannot seem to find a pic of the 3102, but I am using the 3110 on my pro action topline(now RHS) heads and from your description, they seem to be of a similar design. Mine consist of one large base that bolts down through intake rocker holes and then 4 smaller basses that bolt to the exhaust rocker hole and then to the large base. The setup was pretty simple and straight forward, mine came with a machined stand height gauge, you just add or delete shims under the base(s) to get the height correct, torque the bases down, then bolt and torque the rockers down. All you have left is double check for clearance issues, set the lash and let it eat. I honestly have nothing bad to say about them and I have not used anything else other than a stock style stud/roller rocker/ girdle but I am extremely pleased with them and to date have had no issues. I probably had a couple hundred passes on them and a couple thousand street miles, not 100% sure on the spring seat pressure as I did not setup the heads personally, but they were triples with a solid roller, so I am sure they were over 300. Every time I checked for valve lash at similar temperatures, the lash was exactly same as I had set them previously. I even did head gaskets on my at the track once, I removed all of the rockers in order, swapped out the head gaskets(same exact gasket) reassembled everything in order and the lash was exactly the same when I checked it before disassembly, I still double checked every one just to make sure. The only issue I would see is if the cast rocker bosses on the heads are machined incorrectly at a different angle cylinder to cylinder or machined differently than what T&D designed the base(s) for then you might have some problems. I have them all boxed up right now until I am back at the point where I need them, but I can dig them out and post up some pics if you need them.
I am not really sure what the question is, but I am pretty sure the answer is Big Block.

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wikd69
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Re: Jesel and T&D Shaft Rocker Solutions

#4 Post by wikd69 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:03 pm

ytnova wrote:John, I cannot seem to find a pic of the 3102, but I am using the 3110 on my pro action topline(now RHS) heads and from your description, they seem to be of a similar design. Mine consist of one large base that bolts down through intake rocker holes and then 4 smaller basses that bolt to the exhaust rocker hole and then to the large base. The setup was pretty simple and straight forward, mine came with a machined stand height gauge, you just add or delete shims under the base(s) to get the height correct, torque the bases down, then bolt and torque the rockers down. All you have left is double check for clearance issues, set the lash and let it eat. I honestly have nothing bad to say about them and I have not used anything else other than a stock style stud/roller rocker/ girdle but I am extremely pleased with them and to date have had no issues. I probably had a couple hundred passes on them and a couple thousand street miles, not 100% sure on the spring seat pressure as I did not setup the heads personally, but they were triples with a solid roller, so I am sure they were over 300. Every time I checked for valve lash at similar temperatures, the lash was exactly same as I had set them previously. I even did head gaskets on my at the track once, I removed all of the rockers in order, swapped out the head gaskets(same exact gasket) reassembled everything in order and the lash was exactly the same when I checked it before disassembly, I still double checked every one just to make sure. The only issue I would see is if the cast rocker bosses on the heads are machined incorrectly at a different angle cylinder to cylinder or machined differently than what T&D designed the base(s) for then you might have some problems. I have them all boxed up right now until I am back at the point where I need them, but I can dig them out and post up some pics if you need them.
I went ahead and ordered a set of T&D 3102's and they came in last week. I unboxed them today for a test fit and discovered I have a clearance issue with the rocker stud bosses, just like you mention. It appears that if I want to use these I'm gonna need to pull the heads and get them down to the machine shop to have some clearancing done. Damn. I *just* torqued these heads down, too. It could be worse - it's hanging on the stand, but it's still a pain in the patootie, not to mention a couple hundred dollars for new head gaskets, plus the head tear down and re-assembly before and after mill work.

Crapola...
1969 ProStreet Camaro RS Best 9.75@139 1.46 60'
Blown 427 BBC, TH400 w/Brake, Back-Half Ladderbar
Narrowed 12-Bolt, 4.10 Gears, Spool, Moser 33 Spline

http://www.marsh-racing.com/harrys_camaro-1.htm

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